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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/24/2002 : 06:46:00

Just looked at the page I've bookmarked to keep track of the America's Cup, technically the Louis Vitton cup, progress and discovered that Prada and Team DC are challenging the OneWorld syndicate. Prada and Team DC hope to have OneWorld disqualified.

What do y'awl think of this?

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2002 : 10:52:54

Hmmmmmmmmm Don. Couldn't find your bookmark.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2002 : 12:20:35

With all the shenanigans that DC has pulled in The Cup, I think that they should DSQ him - even if it's just a matter of principle!
FYI here's an URL to the local paper that covers the Cup for the locals:
http://nzherald.co.nz

Derek (the nicer DC<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2002 : 13:04:29

Dennis the menace will do anything to win. Do you remember his trying to take over another boat when his was beaten. I do. On some of his sailing adventures he just stayed below deck like a lump of balast. I guess One World is just to good for him. If you cant beat them on the water beat them with lawyers.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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John A. Stratton
Deckhand

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1 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2002 : 17:59:15

DC has never hesitated to rely on less than sportsman like tactics. I'm suprised the Prada team joined with him, also dissapointed in the N. Y. Yacht Club. I thought they had grown up.

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2002 : 19:03:35

OLN will have a report tonight at 9 PM est if they race.

The weather has bee "wrong" the past two nights.

Remember when Dennis and Bill Koch got in that ego battle and Koch wouldn't let DC use his boat. Koch's boat was the fastest of the bunch but ego's got in the way.

Don't forget ORACLE. They're very fast and well organized.

I am curious to see USA-77 race. That is the DC boat that sank. She is supposed to be very fast.

What a mess, but I love it.

Paul

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2002 : 19:56:11

Bill,

The site I've bookmarked is;

http://www.americascup.co.nz

Another one of the times I sould a done it and knew it when or as I clicked "post this message."

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Tony Dillon
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2002 : 18:03:58

If Team DC were somehow to come out on top of Louis Vuitton, I will be very tempted to root for New Zealand!

Tony Dillon
Mental Floss

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 05:42:35

I gather that, at least for those who have responded, DC is not a favorite with c25 posters. but the allegation has to do with actions by OneWorld. Today's lead artical on the site I monitor says:

"This action follows a request by the New York Yacht Club and Yacht Club Punta Ala to the America's Cup Arbitration Panel to investigate allegations that OneWorld Challenge possessed and used design information from other syndicates in breach of the Protocol governing competition."

Is that true? If it is shouldn't they be disqualified? Isn't that the issue at hand? Certainly DC is an issue, but not really the issue being heard.

Aside from all that the whole issue takes away from racing. To me that is a shame <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>!

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 10:33:00

Paul - it wasn't Koch who wouldn't lend DC "Mighty Mary" - it was the lady crew. They told him if he tried to lend it to DC they would take her out and sink her! This was after he'd shenaniganned his way into the Final.
Personally I'd love to see the final between Barker & Coutts - they had many a bumper boat battle in their practices last time!
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 13:38:49

I understand, but don’t agree with, the animosity toward Dennis Conner. In any competition, the rules make the game fair for all competitors. If someone tramples on the rules, he has an advantage over the person who complies with all the limitations that are imposed by the rules.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> If you cant beat them on the water beat them with lawyers. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

In July, 1987, Michael Fay threw out the 12 meter rules that had governed the design of AC racers for many years, and challenged the San Diego Yacht Club to a regatta in September, 1987. Fay proposed to use a massive boat nearly twice the length of the 12 meter boats. Conner had one year to raise the money to build such a monster, and to design, build and test it. It was an unfair challenge, but Connor figured that, if all design limitations were out the window, then he could build any type of boat he wished. He built a 60 foot catamaran and won the race. Michael Fay (not Dennis Conner) filed a lawsuit, attempting to overturn, in court, the results on the race course. Fay won in the trial court, but it was reversed on appeal, and Conner won. Fay had set up a cup challenge in which there were practically no design limitations, and Conner simply out-foxed Fay, playing by the rules that Fay created. Many people have forgotten the facts of that race and think Conner was the author of that debacle, but he was really Fay’s intended victim.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Remember when Dennis and Bill Koch got in that ego battle and Koch wouldn't let DC use his boat. Koch's boat was the fastest of the bunch but ego's got in the way. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I agree with Conner that we ought to have our best skipper sailing our fastest boat in the AC races. However, if Koch felt that he owed loyalty to his skipper and crew (dance with the one that brung ya…), then he had that right. I don’t fault Conner for asking, or Koch for turning him down.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> DC has never hesitated to rely on less than sportsman like tactics. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I don’t know what Conner has done that is unsportsmanlike. He follows the rules and he expects others to follow them. If you think your opponent is violating a rule, there’s nothing wrong with challenging his action or initiating a protest.

I vaguely remember Conner making one or two stupid public comments after having a few drinks at a banquet, but who among us has not shot off his or her big fat mouth in similar circumstances?

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 15:21:00

I just looked at the addresses of the strongest anti-DC posters. They seem, not exclusively to be West Coast folk, and many Washingtom folk. Mmmmm? I wonder . . .. Y'awl want the next cup in the Pacific NW?

That's ok, but does that bias your view?

Boy I'm enjoying this one!

<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - osmepneo on 11/26/2002 15:21:49

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 19:34:53

I'll admit that I don't think much of DC as a person - now as a sailor, that's a different kettle of fish - he is marvelous!. He is famous for bending the rules and conniving to keep things going his way - of course the New York Y.C. taught him well, for 132 years they connived to keep the Cup!
I think the best way to solve most of the A.C. problems is to make racers race for the country of their birth (a la The Olympics). This would stop the top talent from being bought by the highest bidder (reportedly Coutts et al got $2 million each to "jump country") and revert the Cup to it's original premise - a contest between sailors and boats from each nation.
Just my humble opinion.
Derek (English by birth, but American by preference)

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 20:25:20

Derek, I would agree that the entire process should be changed. Country of birth would be one solution or country of citizenship would work too. And, in my mind's eye citizenship should include a period of time, like maybe ". . . be a citizen of the country representing for a period longer than the time between America Cup events . . .." Then the next layer of the argument would be the design team, and the sail makers. Probably a lot of challenges that would need to be overcome.

But the professional athletes in this country jump from team to team without second thought, so why not the sailors. The bids are submitted by yacht clubs and if they can buy the talent, why not?

Makes for interesting discussions.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Dennis Pierce
1st Mate

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USA
59 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 05:43:27

Dennis got a "scholarship" in the SDYC junior program and has been an advocate of jr. sailing programs. My son was invited aboard one of the Stars & Stripes boats while it was docked at SWYC and I had to wait on the dock! When my wife and I ran a junior program, we could always count on DC to be trophy presenter for club jr sabot races. I'm sure that there are a few C class jr. sabot racers out there that will always remember getting a trophy from DC along with a few words of encouragement.

America's Cup is nothing more than NASCAR on water! Match racing like the Congressional Cup is far more interesting.

Dennis Pierce
Gypsy Witch #1719

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 11:46:42

"Winning isn't everything. It's the ONLY thing!"

Whoever said, "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you played the game", was probably on the losing side.

And something I heard recently, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."

To me, the America's Cup is about raising the most money and designing the best sled. It's about research and development for high-tech sails and equipment. Getting the best personnel that money can buy. Doing everything both within and without the rules to gain advantage. And, it's about personalities and egos.

Oops!...I almost forgot...it's also about the sailing.

This is why I cancelled my subscription to Sail magazine and renewed my subscription to Cruising World!

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 13:37:27

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> To me, the America's Cup is about raising the most money and designing the best sled. It's about research and development for high-tech sails and equipment. Getting the best personnel that money can buy.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That's also true about auto racing, and the space race, and bicycle racing, and bobsled racing, and horse racing, and...etc. Why aren't we cynical about all those sports? It is because of that money and research and development that we have laminated sails and wing keels and halliards, sheets and anchor lines made of man-made fibers, and it's why sailing technology is still alive and creative.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>[the America's Cup is about]...Doing everything both within and without the rules to gain advantage. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That might be true for some people, but it isn't true for the overwhelming majority of racers, and people who race that way don't make it into big time racing. There are lawyers who violate the rules of the legal profession, and doctors who violate the rules of their profession, and television repairmen and plumbers and electricians and roofers who violate basic principles of fairness and honesty. Does that mean we should tar all the good and bad people with the same brush? Should we condemn the whole sport of football because a player beat his wife, or drove a car while intoxicated?

It's perfectly proper for a racer to do everything the rules allow to win a race. If the rules allow something that is repugnant, then we can change the rule. If we go out on the race course and fail to use every bit of skill and knowledge and effort that we can muster to win the race, then we are doing a disservice to our opponent, who doesn't want to beat us when we aren't trying to win. There's no satisfaction in that. He wants to beat us when we are giving our best effort. I wouldn't give a damn for a racer who didn't do everything to win that is legally allowed.

Traditionally, yacht racing is supposed to be a "gentlemen's sport," in which we all voluntarily comply with the rules and police ourselves, because we usually can't post referees all around the course. If we know we committed a violation, we are honor bound to voluntarily take the penalty, even if nobody else saw it, and even if it means we will lose an important race. The rules require a competitor to protest any violation he sees another competitor commit during the race. When Dennis Conner protests another boat, he is not engaging in "shenannigans." He is enforcing the rules as he understands them. The race committee will decide if he is correct. Should Dennis keep quiet and let an opponent win unfairly?

Yacht racing is not primarily a physical sport. It is one of the few truly cerebral sports, in which brutality is not a factor. Like chess, yacht racing is primarily about knowing more and playing smarter than your opponent, and planning your strategy two or three moves in advance.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>And, it's about personalities and egos. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Don't we all have personalities and egos, and aren't we all driven to some extent by them? Isn't that one reason why we play golf and baseball and every other competitive sport? Isn't that why we strive to graduate from school with honors? What's wrong with it? That's what makes it fun and rewarding to excel at something.

Forgive the soapbox, but a lot of sailors and landlubbers alike make these same criticisms of our sport, and, as you can see, few people come to its defense.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 14:09:45

OUCH!<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> Next time I'll keep my opinion to myself!

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 19:51:09

Steve,

After reading your diatribe, I went back to my earlier post to see exactly what I said that caused your rather heated reply and I don’t get it. Actually, if you omit my sentence at the end about the magazine subscriptions, you would not even be able to tell what side of the fence I was leaning on!

After my statement, “To me, the America's Cup is about raising the most money and designing the best sled. It's about research and development for high-tech sails and equipment. Getting the best personnel that money can buy.” You said,

” That's also true about auto racing, and the space race, and bicycle racing, and bobsled racing, and horse racing, and...etc. Why aren't we cynical about all those sports?”

To answer your question, we are cynical about those sports. Don’t we impound winning race cars after a race to make sure they are legal? Don’t we test both bicycle racers and race horses for doping? Don’t we keep an eye out for bobsledders who illegally heat their runners? If we weren’t a little cynical, we wouldn’t be monitoring these sports like this. As far as the “space race” goes, I’m not sure what you mean by that and I don’t think it’s an actual “race” anyway.

When I said, “…the America's Cup is about...Doing everything both within and without the rules to gain advantage.” You asked,

“Does that mean we should tar all the good and bad people with the same brush?…Should we condemn the whole sport of football because a player beat his wife, or drove a car while intoxicated?”

No, to the first question, and a huh(?) to the “wife beating-driving while intoxicated” analogy.

“It's perfectly proper for a racer to do everything the rules allow to win a race.”

Yes, up to a point. For example, take the athletes who have used performance enhancing drugs. Once they were found using drugs A, B, and C, to boost their performance those drugs were officially banned in the rules. So what did these athletes do, they used performance enhancing drugs D, E, and F because they weren’t officially banned in the “rules” yet. So following the letter of the law within the rules doesn’t mean you are playing within the spirit of them. You, yourself alluded to this in an earlier post when you said Michael Fay threw out the rules in 87' and built a larger boat. In turn, Conner builds and races a 60 foot cat. This turned the whole challenge into a farce, albeit a quite humorous one. Then to top it off, there was litigation. Is this sportmanlike play or were egos getting in the way?
Speaking of egos,...

”Don't we all have personalities and egos, and aren't we all driven to some extent by them? Isn't that one reason why we play golf and baseball and every other competitive sport? Isn't that why we strive to graduate from school with honors? What's wrong with it?”

Yes, we all have personalities and egos, and yes there isn’t anything wrong with it, but when ones ego is “perceived” by people as being larger than the activity(like the majority of posters here think about DC) then, fairly or unfairly, there might be an issue. Take for example the Terrell Owens “Sharpie” incident where he scored a touchdown, whips out a pen, then signs the football. Or his running to the Dallas 50 to spike the ball on their emblem after a touchdown. Terrell might arguably be the best at what he does in his sport, but some might think his ego is becoming larger than his play. By no means am I comparing DC to Terrell Owens, because truthfully, I'm with Derek. You don't get where Conner is without being good.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 21:48:04

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
As far as the “space race” goes, I’m not sure what you mean by that and I don’t think it’s an actual “race” anyway.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Don... You're younger than I thought you were.

And BTW, when you get to the top of any sport in this world, you'll find that the people who are there have probably had to do things that you and I could hardly conceive doing to get there. That's why they're there, and we're here--so many levels below that we can't even count them.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/27/2002 21:54:37

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 22:01:29

Dave,

Although the space race was a little before my time(I was born in 63') I'm familar with it(Kruschev, Sputnik 1957, Kennedy's 'Man on the moon by the end of the decade' speech, Mercury, Apollo,...etc).

I just didn't see how the "space race" fit in with the horse racing, bicycle racing, and bobsledding examples. In the space race there were no rules just "make it happen" at any cost. If that meant stealing secrets(which everyone probably did) from the other guys, then so be it.

"And BTW, when you get to the top of any sport in this world, you'll find that the people who are there have probably had to do things that you and I could hardly conceive doing to get there. That's why they're there, and we're here--so many levels below that we can't even count them."

In my case, I'm so many levels lower, I would need an elevator just to get out of the hole.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - dlucier on 11/27/2002 22:12:08

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 22:38:11

Don, you ARE younger... I graduated from HS in '63. And as you acknowledge, it certainly was a race--albeit with no rules. An uncle of mine helped put our first object, the Echo satellite, into orbit shortly after Sputnik I went up. It was serious business!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/27/2002 22:40:58

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 00:51:55

Any time it is us against them. We must root for us even if we don't like some of the guys. Like the Ryder Cup I did not like all of the players on the United States team but I still wanted them to win. My personal feeling, it's the crew on the Cup boats that makes the difference. The big name guys get the money and point the finger. 3 of the 6 boats left are from the U.S. maybe we can get the cup back!

Bryan Beamer
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 08:23:20

Good point Byran, but is the team really an American (USA) team if the whole effort is not American - design, sails, skipper and crew?

I haven't looked at crew roosters and determined the most "American" team, but like other sports, sailors of many nations participate in the racing, not just for teams that represent their own nation. It makes it hard for me to relate to "my" team, when it comprised of players whose names I can't even pronounce.

I know this is not a politically correct statement, and certaintly don't begrudge anyone from playing, I'm only stating my personal ability to relate.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 09:33:22

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...It makes it hard for me to relate to "my" team, when it comprised of players whose names I can't even pronounce...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Don: I'll lay a small wager you can't even pronounce MY name (the way my parents told me to). <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/28/2002 09:35:01

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 09:40:25

Michael Fay’s challenge, and not Conner’s catamaran, is what made the ’88 AC a farce. Fay’s challenge allowed Conner an inadequate amount of time to raise money, build a boat and defend the cup. It put Conner in a no-win situation. Consider Conner’s possible choices. He could try to raise the money and to build a monster boat in the time allowed. If Conner couldn’t raise the money or build the boat in time, for the first time in history the cup would be forfeited to the challenger due to the inability of the defender to field a suitable boat. Obviously, Conner couldn’t allow that to happen. If Connor fielded a boat, but could not win the race, or if the boat broke in half because it was built too hastily, the press, who has never been kind to Conner, would portray Conner as the prince of goats. The only way Connor could win would be if he could raise the money, build a faster boat and train his crew how to sail it in the time allowed. Both Conner and Fay knew that the odds against doing that with a maxi-monohull were overwhelming. Conner did the only thing he could. He built a fast catamaran on the cheap, won the race and kept the cup. If he had tried to build and race a maxi-monohull and failed, I would have thought it a courageous but unrealistic effort. His detractors, who find fault with his every decision and action, would have been less kind. I suspect that, if we were all sitting around a conference table trying to help Dennis decide how to respond to Fay’s challenge, we would probably all have concluded that building a catamaran was his only viable alternative, knowing that the press and his detractors would never forgive him. He had to do something. He couldn’t just forfeit the cup.

I agree with Bryan. I'll root for any boat and team that is flying our flag from the stern. In this country, almost everyone came from somewhere else. Some just arrived more recently than others.

I’m sorry if you thought my last message was heated, Don. I didn’t intend that it sound that way. Based on your last message, we agree on a lot of things. If we both keep chatting on this forum a few more years, you might even learn to like Dennis, or I might learn to dislike him. Nah, I doubt that either of us will change our opinion.

Happy turkey day, all!

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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