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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 10:44:35

Don

AC racing is no different than the NBA the NHL, MLB or business. The man with the money is here but if the best players for that sport are from another country the money man goes and gets them. Most people still root for their favorite baseball, basketball and hockey teams even knowing that a good part of the team rooster are foreign players. I own an electrical contracting business here in Colorado Springs if I needed to hire an electrician and the best one I interviewed was foreign (we all want the best)I would not think twice I would hire the person. My customers would be happy that I'm giving them the best electrician for their project just like modern sports. I guess what I'm saying is your favorate team is your favorate team how ever you choose to look at it.

Bryan Beamer
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 11:00:50

"Based on your last message, we agree on a lot of things." - Steve Milby

We agree that, "I'm so many levels lower, I would need an elevator just to get out of the hole."?

Huh...thanks, I think! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Happy Thanksgiving!

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 11:07:26

"I'll lay a small wager you can't even pronounce MY name (the way my parents told me to)." - Dave Bristle

Oh, Can I try?...Can I try?

Ok, here goes...ready?..."DAVE"(rhymes with Knave).

My last name has three pronounciations depending on what part of the country I'm in.

North = Loo-see-ay

Midwest = Loo-see-er

South = Loo-sher

My parents are Canadian, but since I was born and still live in the midwest, we use the midwestern pronounciation. This pronounciation is good to use in noisy situations(bars, loud parties) because if someone can't hear me say my last name, I just tug on my ear and say, "Loose Ear". Some people have come up with new interesting pronounciations, too, like Luckier...Luke-ee-er...and the infamous "Lucifer" <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>)

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - dlucier on 11/28/2002 11:46:55

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 12:08:15

One characteristic of the AC has been the nationalism of the sport, at least in my mind. In the old days, with many problems, the AC was sailed on big beautiful 12 meters, with teams that truly represented their countries. The American (USA) boat was American and the challenger (often British) was British. In this modern era the national identity has been lost and, for me, that takes something away from AC level racing. In the greater degree of participation among teams from many different clubs, carrying different national identities, we have lost the character of the AC that provided it as national effort against national effort. IMHO.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 22:17:25

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Ok, here goes...ready?..."DAVE"(rhymes with Knave).

My last name has three pronounciations depending on what part of the country I'm in.

North = Loo-see-ay

Midwest = Loo-see-er

South = Loo-sher
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Don: That Midwestern version reminds me of Des Plaines, IL--close to where I grew up--which they pronounce phonetically. Must make the French wince... I would have guessed Loo-see-yay or Loo-shear.

My challenge had to do with my last name, and the issue is whether the "t" is silent, as in a brush. I guess we used the Midwestern style, because we pronounce the "t", which leads everyone to spell it Bristol. Anyway, that's how my pappy learnt me.

Regrading DC, I'll point out that he has won the Star Worlds, which is about as real as it gets! And he's won the AC with the distinctly slower boat. I doubt that there are any of those AC skippers that I'd want as the grandfather of my kids, but they're an interesting bunch, and I wouldn't mind being in Koch's will...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2002 : 05:47:27

This is why I cruise and don't race.

Thirty years ago when I was a student at the University of Virginia, they had a very bad football team which played in a beautiful brick stadium where we cheered the few times something good happened, and enjoyed each other's company always. Exactly the same entrance requirements were applied to athletes as to other students. That stadium now is a skyboxed monstrosity complete with corporate logos and the expectation that the team will go to a bowl annually. Raw meat for the athletic programs is sent to prep academies to teach them how to get 700 on their SATs so they can enter the University. What's it about? MONEY.

I had a wonderful elderly professor in grad school who used to tell us in his British accent, "Ladies and gentlemen, you must always remember: if you want to make money, there's nothing like sin."

This is why when I want to see a baseball game, I watch Little League; when I want to see basketball or football, I go to my son's high school. I can talk to the athletes before and after the game, get to know them and their families, and regularly see some wonderful sport. And if I want to watch sailing, I go do it. My boat isn't plastered with corporate logos. I don't have laminated sails. I don't have a winged keel. And the synthetic lines have as much to do with climbing and other sports as with the America's Cup.

I do not believe that auto and boat racing have one tenth as much to do with technological development as with advertising. A hundred years ago the Cup was about rich "gentlemen" competing: now it's about rich corporations competing and enjoying colossal tax write-offs. A hull pox on all of them: may their ultrathin hulls shatter and carbon fibre masts break, while Lyn and Larry Pardey sail slowly past doubled over in laughter.

Brooke

Edited by - brooke willson on 11/29/2002 05:52:42

Edited by - brooke willson on 11/30/2002 11:12:58

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2002 : 18:16:32

Frankly I've lost all interest in the cup races as of late.

What was once the premier match race between designers, builders, sailmakers, skippers, stategists and sailors truly from the counties they represented, has been degraded into simply yet another corporate sponsored event.

It was always interesting to see which country could come up with the best overall homegrown efort in the areas of sailing, equipment, yacht design and construction.

Now that everyone and everything is for sale to the highest bidder, there's no real significance to the outcome, which is totally bereft of tradition.

An ocean going professional sports team contest maybe, but it's no longer the America's Cup.

Oldsalt

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2002 : 20:27:35

It's interesting how these forums take on a life of their own! After the first few comments about how terrible DC was for filing protest, the discussion has evolved into the nature of the AC and the lack of any national spirit or tradition to the event.

Very little directed toward the merits of DC's challenge. If the OneWorld sydicate "cheated" shouldn't they be punished? Isn't that what DC is asking for?

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2002 : 00:07:02

Don: I think what people are saying is they don't care. I suspect it's partly because the US was a spectator in the last cup, and is likely to be one this time too. For me, it has descended to being just slightly more interesting than the NBA and MLB. In all three, the players don't care who they're playing for, the owners don't care whether they wreck their sport, and I don't either.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2002 : 07:55:51

Dave, Very well said. The AC is nothing more than other professional sports with no loyality to team by the players or the players by the management. How sad!

Thanks for sharing.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2002 : 14:46:57

What is sad to me is the depth and breadth of cynicism toward professional sports. Professional football players go out and knock themselves and each other senseless, cripple themselves and ensure that their after-football lives will be dogged by unending pain, and the fans accuse them of not caring, simply because a conspicuous few of them behave badly.

One-on-one match racing involves special skills and tactics that are not used in other forms of yacht racing. One-on-one match racing is only done regularly in the America's Cup. Thus, the only way to acquire broad knowledge and experience in that style of racing is to crew on an America’s Cup yacht. The best of the crew might be able to work their way up to skipper or tactician. As a result, there are very few racing sailors in the whole world who are qualified to be skipper or tactician on an AC yacht, and no owner in his right mind would turn a $10-20 million effort over to a J-24 champion with no AC experience. If you have to hire a foreign-born skipper or tactician to make the boat perform its best, that's what you do.

We begrudge the fact that the sport has been taken over by corporate sponsorship. Was it a better sport when it was sponsored by the richest men in the world, who spent their wealth to indulge their vanity? Somebody has to pay for those exotic sailing machines. I don't see millions of average people sending in $10.00 contributions or having bake sales to support the sport. You can't realistically charge admission to watch the races, and the only way a yacht race becomes interesting is if the race is televised, so that you can watch the crew action up close. It is difficult to get our sport televised, because non-sailors don't care, and when sailors are asked, they also say they don't care about our sport, because those nasty corporations sponsor it. If even sailors don't care about this sport, why would anyone televise it? If a corporation sees fit to allocate a couple million $ of its advertising budget to support an AC racer, instead of buying advertising time during a bowl game, how does that hurt the AC as a sport?

I don't hear anyone complaining about corporate sponsorship of around-the-world racers. When that event began, the boats were mainly a mishmash of traditional blue water boats of various sizes and designs, and not boats that were designed and built expressly to race around the world. Those skippers are seldom wealthy. Without corporate sponsorship, they could not sail boats with such new and interesting designs. Was it really a better race when the skippers were sailing traditionally designed blue water cruisers, or is the race just as good today, albeit different?

Our sport has changed, but change is good. Stagnation is bad. If you don't think so, just look at what stagnation does to the bottom of your boat. Mark Twain said, "I wouldn't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way." When this forum changed from the trailer sailor format to the present format, everyone hated it. Now everyone loves it. Go figure.

I too would rather sail my own boat than watch an AC race on television. That's what sets sailors apart from many other sports enthusiasts. We want to participate in our sport, and not just watch from the sidelines, but we can't always sail when we would like to.

Once the boat is on the race course, there is nothing more the corporation can do for it. The race is in the hands of the crew, and watching them exhaust their strength, knowledge and ingenuity is what makes the race interesting.

My opinions aren't directed at any individual. I'm just tossing them in the air for what they're worth. Obviously, I think the AC is an old, and still great, sporting event.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2002 : 15:28:18

I have been rooting for DC in this event until his ouster the other day, but not because of HIM. I had the distinct pleasure of running into one of his crew here in Portland, Oregon a few months ago, shortly after one of the teams's boats sank in LA. The guy's name is Caleb (something), and he held the door for me as I walked down to my C-25. He was so nice, I offered my dock cart to his girlfriend and him, as it was not full. I asked him if he had a boat at the marina and he answered "No, but I am fortunate enough to be able to sail on different boats around the world." Only after chatting about an upcoming regatta, and commenting on my nice looking C-25 did the girlfriend finally mention that he was on DC's crew.
The man was so humble and so gracious. Not at all what I would have expected from an AC sailor. I must tell you that he made a very favorable impression on me, and I have rooted for Stars and Stripes throughout just because I found Caleb so down to earth.
Now, I guess, I should be loyal to the "locals" and cheer on OneWorld from Seattle. But if they cheated, as Conner suggests, they should suffer more penalty than the one loss they have been punished with thus far. BTW: I suggest signing up for the Scuttlebutt Yacht Club via the net, if anyone wants daily email updates on major racing events throughout the world.

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

BTW: Bruce Schwab (Ocean Planet) is doing poorly in the Around Alone race. I am rooting for him because he is doing this on a shoestring w/o major corporate sponsors. His boat is a composite wooden boat built here in Portland by Schooner Creek boatworks, a place where I worked for part of a year in the 90's. Good luck, Bruce, on Leg III

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2002 : 17:11:23

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What is sad to me is the depth and breadth of cynicism toward professional sports. Professional football players go out and knock themselves and each other senseless, cripple themselves and ensure that their after-football lives will be dogged by unending pain, and the fans accuse them of not caring, simply because a conspicuous few of them behave badly. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Steve: Oscar Wilde said a cynic is a frustrated romantic. Maybe the reason people are so cynical has something to do with the obscene salaries professional athletes enjoy. As for athletes spending the rest of their lives in pain for their efforts: very few of them play long enough to be so disabled, and those who do have a career-ending injury are seldom permanently disabled. Sure, there are exceptions -- the football player who is a quadriplegic, or Lyle Alzado, who died a horrible death from steroid abuse. But that WAS abuse, wasn't it? The tongue-tied retired athletes doing sports commentary, the retired athletes parlaying their names as real estate agents or as auto dealers or as coaches seem to have landed pretty nicely. You can pay me five million dollars anytime to break my leg.

I submit that the weekend warriors going around the buoys on their C25's and the 8 year olds in Optimists should be considered the benchmarks of our sport, just as the 10 year old playing Little League or the high school offensive tackle grinding it out in the cold mud are in theirs. Do nice guys exist in professional sports? Of course. That doesn't change the central problem.

It's a SPORT. It should be about fun. That's why the amateur, literally, one who does it for love, is the measure of everything. "Professional sports" is almost as big an oxymoron as congressional ethics.

Brooke

Edited by - brooke willson on 11/30/2002 17:13:49

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John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2002 : 18:02:19

The value of the technology of the Americas cup is on a lot of C25’ and C250’s today. Such things as wing keels (DC lost the cup on that one) Kevlar sails and nonstretch lines are commonplace. As for the “the obscene salaries professional athletes enjoy” Brooke, that does not exist in “pro” racing. I’ve sailed with Americas Cup sailors and the best they can hope for is subsistence wages and great “swag” (jackets and foul weather gear) and then a job selling sails to rich dilettantes for a measly commission. The money is spent on the technology and supply systems. A trailer full of sails, masts, lines and spare parts costs a bucket full.
I campaigned a Frers 41. Gerry Bay’s annual budget was in excess of $50,000, not counting his slip, and the boat itself, and we got NADA. I had to be aboard every weekend for those 6 months and do all the major weeklong regattas or I lost my spot. For free! That was for a 6 month amateur campaign.
However Gerry did have a bad back and I got to drive allot. Payment comes in many ways.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
 John G- "PEREGRINE" C25-#4762 FK

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2002 : 22:02:04

John: Steve's comments to which I replied specifically mentioned professional football. I understand that AC crews don't make much money. Nevertheless, I stand by my comments about professional vs. amateur sports in general, recognizing that all generalizations are false <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2002 : 19:28:24

Wish I hadn't left my Sunday NY Times on the plane yesterday... It had an article all about DC's lawyers who, along with the lawyers for the other sydicates, run around with the thousands of pages of rules trying to find opponents' violations. DC's guy considers it to be one of the key elements of the competition, feels that he's the best in the sailing industry, and says teams like One World were ill-prepared for the legal "competition". The One World leader (forgot who) said if he knew that kind of thing was going to happen, he never would have gotten into the AC to begin with, but now he's stuck with legal fees for his own team of sharks. The $ were pretty impressive--a big part of the overall syndicate budgets.

The AC is beginning to look like a unique "sport"!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2002 : 19:53:16

"PORT! Here I come, I'm going to win come the fires of the volcano or spring floods."

I'm certainly glad that ordinary folk racing haven't slipped to that degree. altho' I know several people who consider themselves experts of the racing rules, and make sure you know it. Then in a port starbord crossing situation they will call "PORT and demand their rights. Its amazing how many folk will cower as they veer away to avoid these guys, and then wind up losing by seconds because he intimated them. I guess the guys I'm thinking are the DC's of ordinary folk racing.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2002 : 21:28:53

Don - the way to deal with that is to throw a protest flag! After a few dsq's they should get the message! Or, if the RC hears them they can file a protest under the "bad sportsmanship" rule.
Derek

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2002 : 06:47:51

Of course Derek you are right. And these guys won't try things like that when they come against some of the better sailers in the club or against national competition. One thing that this shows is the importance of being aware of the racing rules, having the knowledge to counter people who violate the rules in an unsportsmanlike manner. One thing that club did to help every know and understand the racing rules was to conduct winter (on the hard time) seminars on racing rules. Unfortunately for the most part the people who showed up were the ones that already knew the racing rule and were looking for a better understanding of the.

Oh, well, that's another story.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Dennis Pierce
1st Mate

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USA
59 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2002 : 09:07:05

Instead of PORT, try NO INSURANCE! Works everytime.

Dennis Pierce
Gypsy Witch #1719

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2002 : 21:07:20

Is it my imagination, or is there an inordinate amount of whining involved in sailboat racing? As you get to Americas cup level, then you get to buy sharks (lawyers) to do your whining for you.

Frank Gloss

Did you know that if it wasn't for lawyers, we probably wouldn't need any?

Frank

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2002 : 23:16:04

Yup! It's a darn shame that Shakespear's advice wasn't followed: "first, let's kill all the lawyers" <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2002 : 12:22:32

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Is it my imagination, or is there an inordinate amount of whining involved in sailboat racing? As you get to Americas cup level, then you get to buy sharks (lawyers) to do your whining for you. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The America’s Cup Challenge was originally created by a trust instrument, which is a legal document. The only guidance it provided with regard to the design of the boats was that only boats of a certain minimum length were allowed to compete. It didn’t prescribe a maximum length, or that the boats had to be monohulls, and it didn’t regulate the beam, draft, sail area, or any other design parameter. In the first part of the last century, competitors agreed to use the J-Boat design formula in the America’s Cup. After WWII, to reduce the enormous cost of building and sailing the huge J-Boats, the competitors agreed to use the smaller 12 meter formula. In 1987, Michael Fay discarded the 12 meter formula, and submitted a challenge in which he proposed to use a huge monohull, and Dennis Conner accepted the challenge, deciding to use a 60 foot catamaran. There was no rule that either allowed or prevented Fay from using such a big boat, and there was no rule that either allowed or prevented Conner from using a catamaran. Moreover, the trust instrument did not establish a mechanism for arbitrating disputes over many of these issues that might arise between competitors. There was no provision requiring that such questions be submitted to an official committee, for example. Thus, when a dispute arises involving these unregulated issues, the only forum that can resolve the issue is the court.

I would like to see an impartial, international racing organization, and an array of competitors, jointly petition a probate court to allow the creation of a mechanism for self-governance, and to create a mechanism for establishing design parameters, and for changing those parameters from-time-to-time, to allow for improvements in yacht design. That wouldn’t eliminate all legal challenges, but it would greatly reduce them. Absent such a mechanism, the competitors have no recourse if one competitor believes another is doing something wrong. I don’t fault the competitors for using the only mechanism they have to protect their investment in a boat. I fault the original America’s Cup trust instrument for being so vague that it leaves us with a sport that does not control some of its most basic issues.

By comparison, the specifications of one-design boats are strictly controlled. The only thing that makes one-design racing fair is the fact that the design and rigging of the boats are closely regulated. In America’s Cup racing, no such design limitations exist, except by agreement of the competitors. When they can’t agree, nobody but the court is available to arbitrate the issue. It is unseemly to have the courts involved in resolving sports issues of this nature, but either the parties can’t figure out how to solve the problem, or they are not motivated to do so.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2002 : 14:49:25

If I were the judge I wouldn't hear the case. I would tell these spoiled rich boys to go meet out at the bike racks after school.

Frank

Frank

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2002 : 15:26:07

Steve: I've never heard of any such "legalities" in one-design racing--only a agreements by the competitors that they will follow the design rules or be DQed by the organizers. Has a Star team ever take another one to court? What court would hear such nonsense? (Well, maybe a divorce court judge who's a sailor and wants to have a little fun for a change.)

The AC is playing a complicated game of allowing innovations while trying to maintain some limits so sailing and tactical skills still count, and allowing unlimited spending by multinational mega-corporations while trying to maintain some nationalism in the competition. I think it's gotten out of control, but that's their problem--not mine. The AC was always a contest among super-rich egomaniacs, as it is now with Connor, Ellison, et al. Let them play their games, but keep them the hell out of our public courts. We have no responsibility for their "investments."

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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