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America's Cup

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2002 : 17:18:17

Dave: We agree. The reason why you never hear of court challenges in one-design racing is because each one-design class association adopts its own regulations. The one-design regulations are enforced by the design class association. Therefore, there is no need for a court to ever intervene.

In America’s Cup racing, except for a requirement that boats be a minimum length, there are no design limitations on an America’s Cup boat. There is no specification as to the maximum length, or beam, or mast height, or sail area, or keel depth, or ballast weight, or displacement, etc. An America’s Cup boat can be a monohull or catamaran, or tri-hull. Moreover, there is no governing body, similar to a one-design “class association,” that could enforce America’s Cup design limitations, even if such design limitations existed.

In short, if somebody devised a set of design standards for an America’s Cup boat, and if a governing body was created to enforce them, then you would never hear of court challenges in America’s Cup racing, because all those issues would be decided by the governing body.

In auto racing, NASCAR prescribes automobile design limitations, and NASCAR is the governing body that enforces those design limitations, issuing fines and other penalties to violators. The same is true with the Indy Racing League. In the America’s Cup, there are no design limitations, and, even if there were, there is no governing body to enforce them. That’s why disputes have to be resolved in court. There is no place else for them to go.

I’m not saying that’s good. On the contrary, it makes a lot of people mad to see their courts used to settle sporting events, but, in truth, our courts have been used for a whole lot more frivolous purposes than that. All I’m saying is that a governing body should be created to control the America’s Cup, and design limitations should be established, so we can avoid court litigation in the future.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 08:30:54

Y'awl,

Several threads have evolved in our discussions of the legal issues surrounding this year's AC. Good discussions and helpful to me to understand the complexity of what's going on in NZ.

After WW2 competing nations agreed, somehow, to use the beautiful 12 meter, a development rule class for cup defenses. If I'm not mistaken at that time Britian was the country challenging for the cup, so I imagine somehow the British sailing community and the American sailing agreed to use 12 meters in the AC races. The 12 meter met the requirements of the cup deed re. length of competeting yachts.

There were rules that determined if a boat was a 12 or not. Plug in the numbers and if the end result was 12 the boat was a 12.

However, somewhere along the way Fay decided to challenge, in accord with the rules, limited as they were, established by the deed of the America's Cup. He had to go to court to establish his right to challenge, and DC then built his catamaran.

Up to Fay's challenge the 12 meter as the boats in AC worked because competitors agreed to live within the limitation established by the 12 meter class.

Now the matches are held in International America's Cup class boats - another development design rule in which design parameters are entered into comples formulas to determine if a boat is in fact IACC boat. New rule. Basically the same process. So one point of control is the rule for the IACC boats. The masters of the rule, I assume some semblence of a one design class maintain the rule and sponser events for the boats to compete.

At this point what is to prevent another another Fay from challenging for 2006? I suspect nothing, but the agreements established by and made by the competitors. In this scenero the new Fay's only recourse would be to take it to court.

Now to be somewhat personal. suppose I wanted to bring osmepneo to Nationals. I have mid-boom sheeting with the traveller just outside the cabin entry. I am not race legal because our rules stipulate end boom sheeting with a traveller on the transome. But I have this heavy, super main trimer who will handle both the main and traveler so that I can concentrate on driving. I enter the championship and am dsq'd. I protest through all the class channels and lose. What is to prevent me from taking my case to the courts. Nothing!

Our class works only as we are willing to abide the rules of the association and the rights to redress prescribed within the association.

I agree with Steve that that is lacking in the AC, but even if it was in place it still wouldn't prevent someone from suing for whatever reason they want. That probability would still be present because there is so much at stake.

Sorry to be so long winded, but . . ..

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 08:35:41

Something has been running through my head:

What's the issue between DC and OneWorld?

Is DC challenging that OneWorld's boat is NOT an IACC boat?

Or, is the issue that DC is saying that OneWord spied on someone and stole their design? If this it would be a question of ethics and sportsmanship.

BTW, when I checked my AC site this morning the decision is due Sunday night or Monday in time for Semi-final racing.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 08:41:00

Y'awl,

One more!

One of the sub-threads of our AC discussion has had to do with the role of nationalism in the AC experience. I think we agree that there is no nationalism in the cup and some of regret this. Russel couts was interviewed and said:

Russell Coutts on nationalism and sailing

<font size=1>The following excerpt is from an interview with Alinghi’s Russell Coutts:

When you live in Geneva which is 5 minutes from the French border you start to forget about nationalistic feelings. The Americas Cup has historically seen many boats from one country using sailors from other countries - American boats using Scandinavian crews, Scottish skippers and so on. Chris Dickson has sailed for the Japanese, Rod Davis has sailed for NZ and now the Italians, Paul Cayard for the Italians then the Americans. If the Swiss team members are the best for our boat then they will sail on it, if not they wont.</font id=size1>

I think he is saying that nationalism is NOT part of AC racing. It isn't.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 10:25:50

It seems that the americas cup is not a competition between nations, but of corporations. Instead of flying a national flag, they should fly a flag with their corporate logo, or maybe the logo of their respective law firms. (Dewey Cheatem and Howe) Or should they fly crying towels?

Frank Gloss

Frank

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 17:49:40

Well when the Kiwis win again they should rename it "The Black Magic Cup". After all it was originally named for the winning yacht "America" - not for the U.S of A!
Derek

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