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Going up the mast...advice?

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Initially Posted - 12/10/2010 : 12:45:49

Looks like I have to go up the mast, the bracket that holds my anemometer is loose and in danger of falling off the mast. I will be borrowing my friend's bosun's chair. It also looks like I have some problems with my steaming and anchor light. Might be doing this tomorrow.

I'd like some advice from some of you that have done this before, safety tips etc. Is there a maximum weight for a person to be sent up?

Peter Powers
1979 TR/FK #1390
~Stephanos~
Bayview Marina,
Lake Ray Hubbard
Dallas, TX

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 13:24:51

Everyone is different, but on a boat this size that is designed to be trailerable, I'd drop the mast instead:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21203&whichpage=3

Edited by - TakeFive on 12/10/2010 13:27:13

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 13:33:13

On a C25, it's much easier to take the mast down than to use a bosun's chair. Also, if the job takes longer than you expect, or you need to get more parts or materials or tools, or, if you drop a screw or tool, you don't have to go up and down the mast repeatedly.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 13:40:36

Ditto. I'd be particularly concerned over potential problems at the masthead if parts are loose.

But, if you must climb the mast, you'll need both the main and jib halyard (belt and suspenders) and a couple of guys big enough to do the hoisting as you climb. You'll also need to be sure the boat is secure. I'm guessing but let's say you weigh 200 pounds. That much weight aloft will cause the boat to sway side to side if not secured. Probably wouldn't go over due to the keel but man, what a ride. I'd need new underwear.

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Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 13:40:58

I've been up our mast twice. I didn't find it onerous, but I am a flyweight. (150 lbs)

Take a camera up with you. You can get some good pics up there. Attach a pulley to your harness and a spare length of line. Whatever you forget/drop you can have attached to the line and pull up.

My rules when I do this...
- No one on the boat except one guy who I can trust my life to.
- Safety line is to a helper on teh dock.
- Have one halyard they are lifting me on and a second that is a safety line.
- This is serious business and not a time for joking around - no one sets foot on my finger when I am up there.

There is one guy in our marina who thinks its a great joke to jump (quite literally) on a boat when someone is up a mast and see how far he can get them to swing. Not a popular person. I won't even discuss these jobs when he is nearby.

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 14:18:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 I've been up our mast twice. I didn't find it onerous, but I am a flyweight. (150 lbs)

Take a camera up with you. You can get some good pics up there. Attach a pulley to your harness and a spare length of line. Whatever you forget/drop you can have attached to the line and pull up.

My rules when I do this...
- No one on the boat except one guy who I can trust my life to.
- Safety line is to a helper on teh dock.
- Have one halyard they are lifting me on and a second that is a safety line.
- This is serious business and not a time for joking around - no one sets foot on my finger when I am up there.

There is one guy in our marina who thinks its a great joke to jump (quite literally) on a boat when someone is up a mast and see how far he can get them to swing. Not a popular person. I won't even discuss these jobs when he is nearby.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Taking the mast down was a bear, for real. This looks like a quick fix, and either I can go up at 185 pounds or I have a guy that's about 150 pounds I can send up. Thanks for the tips. My friend has a bosun's chair so no expense there. It'll be me, my friend with the C-27 and the guy we send aloft.

Edited by - on

PCP777
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Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 14:25:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Ditto. I'd be particularly concerned over potential problems at the masthead if parts are loose.

But, if you must climb the mast, you'll need both the main and jib halyard (belt and suspenders) and a couple of guys big enough to do the hoisting as you climb. You'll also need to be sure the boat is secure. I'm guessing but let's say you weigh 200 pounds. That much weight aloft will cause the boat to sway side to side if not secured. Probably wouldn't go over due to the keel but man, what a ride. I'd need new underwear.

I'd seriously consider taking the mast down. It would be good practice and a helluva lot easier to work on the broken parts. You'll still need a couple of guys, particularly if you haven't done it before. Besides, a gin pole or an a-frame will probably cost less than a bosun's chair.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's actually not part of the mast head, but an additional bracket that the guys that did my bottom job added for the anemometer when I had them replace my original windex and set up my mast head light. The guys at this yard did such a crappy job that the windex they installed blew off, and now this bracket that they built for the anemometer is loose. We sent a guy up to put up the new windex, and it took about 10 minutes. Now this bracket they installed has come loose. Needless to say, I'll never use that outfit again.

I did replace the sheaves at the mast head last time we brought the mast down a few months ago, so everything should be fine for a trip up the mast.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 14:49:31

Can you say..... Loctite????

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 14:54:33

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 15:58:01

AND lockwashers on the nuts and bolts!

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 16:08:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...There is one guy in our marina who thinks its a great joke to jump (quite literally) on a boat when someone is up a mast and see how far he can get them to swing. Not a popular person. I won't even discuss these jobs when he is nearby.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'd have my friend, Guido from Bayonne, play a little "joke" on him.

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islander
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Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 18:28:03

Have you ever had your winches apart? When I saw how small those pawls are and the little slots that they lock into..Well lets just say I wouldn't trust my skull to these small winches. Drop the mast or borrow/buy a Mast Mate.

Gee with the group you have at your Marina you could all chip in for one and share it.

Edited by - islander on 12/10/2010 18:30:32

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 12/10/2010 : 21:53:18

I have been up the mast and really didn't find it to be a big deal, but two halyards and serious attention are necessary. We used a 4:1 mainsheet tackle shackled to the stemhead for my 190 pounds and a lot of line - the same tackle I use to raise the mast. I would normally drop the mast, leave the A-frame in place while doing the repair, and raise the mast - quick, easy, and safe. My situation involved a bent spreader, and I chose to go up instead of lowering the asymmetrical rig. On a windless day, there was very little sway.

Edited by - on

Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/11/2010 : 00:43:01

Going aloft on our boats is really not a big deal. I've done it many times. There are some draw backs to performing work up there on any boat, ie: tool/parts can be dropped, needing different tool/parts once up there, etc. For the most part those issues can be delt with fairly easily.

Having said that, there are some other items for concern. A fall from that height will cause serious injury if not death. Marine grade equipment is rated for max loads and safe working loads of equipment only. There is no rating for life safety use. Life rated or climbing gear has an added safety factor built into the working load limits.

Does that mean a marine pulley rated at 200SWL is going to fail with a 150 pound person? No, it will probably work just fine, provided it has been well maintained. Here's the problem, if you drop a weight just 1 foot, the shock load can be 4x's the load. Now that can put 600LBS on that 200SWL pulley, chances to fail just went way up. Are you absolutely certain your equipment is 'bomb proof'? If it isn't I would not go up.

You can provide some measure of life safety. True life safety equipment has a safe factor of 15:1 You can take the breaking strength and divide by 15 to get a life safety rating,(not supported by the manufacture) but if you must use it, it's better than nothing. At a minimum, use a 5:1 SWL limit. Your weight times 5 = SWL, 10 is better. The idea is to plan for 'murphy failure' and provide a margin of safety to catch you.

Operational things to consider. If you run the line through blocks mounted to the deck, think about: your deck core,through bolted with backing plate? Also that in order to lift 150LBS you will need 150+LBS pulling. Your halyard runs over a pulley at the masthead supported with a 1/4" steel pin. 150LBS on one end plus 150+LBS pulling on the other equals 300+LBS at the top. When was the last time you checked the condition of that pin? If you drop 1 foot, slip of rope on winch, anything, thats 4x's 300=1200LBS of potential load on that pin in a cast aluminum head. What kind of shape is your line in?

Your safety line should be attached to a point on your body that is above your waist. That will lessen the chance for you to be flipped over or snapped backwards. Causing serious back injury. The person tending the safety line (most important person during the this) should lead it through a dock (not a deck) cleat or similar. Something to help create friction, hand strength will not hold you.
Also tend the line so as to not allow any amount of slack to form in the system.

With all of that, remember I said I've gone up many times? This is what I do. First I use climbing gear, I do not rely on my boats sailing gear, except for the line. (I factor in 15:1 safety on 7/16 line for a 400LBS Life Safety Working Limit) I account for the masthead load limit by tying the line to the mast and I use ascenders to climb up. No added load by being hoisted up. I use a class 3 harness (upper and lower body support)and I have a shock load protector to absorb any added load from a fall of 3 feet. I also have someone on my safety that knows how to use the safety belay.

So going up is really not an issue....if you have the right equipment,knowledge and training to do so. With out that, can it be done?....sure....maybe....I'd get help to lower the mast

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 12/11/2010 : 07:07:02

Well writen Mark. Great post, and should go into the Mainsheet.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 12/11/2010 : 15:47:23

I gotta say.. No problem going up.. After you have been trained by a climber. Otherwise.. Just drop the mast. Lots easier to work on and no loss of life..main thing to me is ya ought to be proficent at dropping the mast.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 12/12/2010 : 05:35:11

Great thread... If I may be so bold as to question the standing rigging for such an operation, the deck stepped mast thingy which looks flimsy, and the skinny running gear which may not be as stout as was once prescribed by the builder, and geez dropping the mast sounds like a brilliant idea....

Mind you - I have gone up and it wasn't pretty. I now go up 58' with nary a worry because I've got serious gear, but I look back on my C25 airborne experiences and shake my head and count my blessings.

sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25 #3220
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Pete

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 12/12/2010 : 15:44:19

Let's see - takes about 2 hours to drop and re-raise a mast (especially on a tall rig). 5 minutes to rig a bosun's chair. 10 mins to masthead (max). Maybe 1/2 hr to fix things. 3 minutes down to deck.
Why waste so much time when you could be sailing!
Quite frankly there should never be a problem using a bosun's chair - provided you do it right.
BTW - the mast is either 3' or 5' longer than the boat. How do you get to the masthead with the mast laying on the boat especially if there's not another slip the other side of the walkway?

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 12/12/2010 : 15:56:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 ...BTW - the mast is either 3' or 5' longer than the boat. How do you get to the masthead with the mast laying on the boat especially if there's not another slip the other side of the walkway?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Simply slide it aft.

Edited by - John Russell on 12/12/2010 15:58:28

PCP777
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Response Posted - 12/12/2010 : 17:13:53

Well, mission was aborted, cold front came in from the north that was producing gusts over 30 knts. I appreciate both schools of thought.

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Tom Gauntt
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Response Posted - 12/13/2010 : 09:30:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Why waste so much time when you could be sailing!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are two answers: 7,056 joules (or 70,000 newtons) and 10 months.

The 7,056 joules is the amount of energy rendered at impact of an 80kg (176 lbs) object falling from a distance of 9 m (29'6"). The velocity of said object is 13.28 m/s (29.7 mph) at impact. Simply put, a fall from the top of the mast delivers you to the deck with great alacrity and little delicacy at nearly 30 miles per hour. A stanchion, a winch, just the naturally uneven surfaces of our decks lends to a very inhospitable landing zone for us earth-bound creatures.

Ten months is how long my neighbor, Al, was in re-hab after falling from his back porch roof a few years ago. Al only fell 3 meters. I was the first person to find Al's broken body that morning (he was cleaning leaves off the roof when he slipped and fell). He had a compound-complex fracture of his radius and ulna, a complex fracture of the tib/fib, and a fractured pelvis. He was "life-flighted" to Shock Trauma. He will never be "back to normal."

The reason I would drop the mast rather than go aloft is that dropping the mast is the safer alternative. What keeps the mast up is a series of mechanical parts subject the ravages of sun, wind, corrosion, and stress. How are the tangs at the masthead? What about the swages on the stays and shrouds? What about the masthead itself? I think the rig of our size boats are the very minimum where one would consider going aloft. The other point to keep in mind is leverage. If you think of the mast as a 30-foot long lever arm with a fulcrum just below the water line, our friend Archimedes says a 200 pound force equals a 1,500 pound force on a four foot lever arm. Wouldn't take much for things to get away from you straddling this fine line of balance.

If it were me, I would drop the mast, fix the anemometer, anchor light, inspect the sheaves, clevises, swages, VHF antenna, spreaders and sockets, tangs, etc. from the comfort and safety of terra firma. If you time everything, dropping the mast might take longer. It might actually be quicker depending on what you find. YMMV.

Edited by - on

PCP777
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Response Posted - 12/13/2010 : 12:46:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tom Gauntt
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Why waste so much time when you could be sailing!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are two answers: 7,056 joules (or 70,000 newtons) and 10 months.

The 7,056 joules is the amount of energy rendered at impact of an 80kg (176 lbs) object falling from a distance of 9 m (29'6"). The velocity of said object is 13.28 m/s (29.7 mph) at impact. Simply put, a fall from the top of the mast delivers you to the deck with great alacrity and little delicacy at nearly 30 miles per hour. A stanchion, a winch, just the naturally uneven surfaces of our decks lends to a very inhospitable landing zone for us earth-bound creatures.

Ten months is how long my neighbor, Al, was in re-hab after falling from his back porch roof a few years ago. Al only fell 3 meters. I was the first person to find Al's broken body that morning (he was cleaning leaves off the roof when he slipped and fell). He had a compound-complex fracture of his radius and ulna, a complex fracture of the tib/fib, and a fractured pelvis. He was "life-flighted" to Shock Trauma. He will never be "back to normal."

The reason I would drop the mast rather than go aloft is that dropping the mast is the safer alternative. What keeps the mast up is a series of mechanical parts subject the ravages of sun, wind, corrosion, and stress. How are the tangs at the masthead? What about the swages on the stays and shrouds? What about the masthead itself? I think the rig of our size boats are the very minimum where one would consider going aloft. The other point to keep in mind is leverage. If you think of the mast as a 30-foot long lever arm with a fulcrum just below the water line, our friend Archimedes says a 200 pound force equals a 1,500 pound force on a four foot lever arm. Wouldn't take much for things to get away from you straddling this fine line of balance.

If it were me, I would drop the mast, fix the anemometer, anchor light, inspect the sheaves, clevises, swages, VHF antenna, spreaders and sockets, tangs, etc. from the comfort and safety of terra firma. If you time everything, dropping the mast might take longer. It might actually be quicker depending on what you find. YMMV.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thank you for your input.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/13/2010 : 17:27:11

I worked as a rigger for several years, up the mast in a bosun's many times on larger boats. Maybe it's my advanced age but the reward of going up the mast on a 25' boat do not outweigh the risks. All the parts are too small, I'd drop the mast.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 12/13/2010 : 19:03:22

Get a 4000# winch, hook it up to the dock a couple of slips away, attach the cable to the top of the mast and hit the button. Shouldn't take that much of a pull to get the mast down to a good "working" height. Solves all your problems of climbing the mast and/or dropping the mast.

Edited by - GaryB on 12/13/2010 19:05:06

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2010 : 19:22:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 Get a 4000# winch, hook it up to the dock a couple of slips away, attach the cable to the top of the mast and hit the button. Shouldn't take that much of a pull to get the mast down to a good "working" height...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...only with some good deck-meat to handle the mast after it gets to about the 45-degree point where the winch loses its leverage and the tiniest stretch causes a free-fall.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 12/13/2010 : 20:05:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 Get a 4000# winch, hook it up to the dock a couple of slips away, attach the cable to the top of the mast and hit the button. Shouldn't take that much of a pull to get the mast down to a good "working" height...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...only with some good deck-meat to handle the mast after it gets to about the 45-degree point where the winch loses its leverage and the tiniest stretch causes a free-fall.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Gin pole or A-frame solves that easily. And with it you can keep the winch on the boat, and use much smaller than 4000 lb.

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