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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Local loft vs. production sails

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pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/15/2011 : 15:21:12

I am in the market for new sails and a furler (I have decided on the CDI FF4.) I have spoken with a local sailmaker - Skip Moorhouse as well as National Sail which sells foreign manufactured Rolly Tasker sails. The cost difference between Moorhouse and National Sail is about $700 or 33%.

The differences that I can see are as follows:
1) Skip will measure my boat and will install the system
2) The extrusion for the furler will not be coiled for shipping, only bent into a U shape for the hour it will take to transport to the boat.
3) Easier access to the sailmaker with the local loft if I am dissatisfied.

So the question...is the extra money worth it?? I know that is pretty subjective, but I am wondering if folks who have dealt both locally and with distributors of foreign made sails have found value in dealing locally??

Pat Duffy
1984 SK/SR #4113
Slàinte

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2011 : 17:41:14

Never heard of Rolly Tasker. After some research I've chosen Ullman Sails in Ventura, CA. Gary Swenson has built a lot of sails for C25s. His loft also makes sails for Catalina Direct. Several here have purchased from Gary. He's very easy to talk with (answers the phone himself half the time!) Sage advice with no pressure.

http://www.ullmanventura.com/

Good luck.

Edited by - OJ on 01/16/2011 08:32:15

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2011 : 18:02:48

I like my 135% Rolly Tasker from National Sail. Price was the deciding factor for me. The deal was clinched when somebody reported on this forum that the local loft he used actually had the sails made offshore in South Africa. I think they were Norths but not sure.

Having the loft guy come and measure the boat is probably helpful in one-off boats but the variations from one Catalina 25 to another are so slight that off the shelf sails will fit just fine. After all, there are about 6000 of them around the world. I'd think they have a handle on the measurements. If you should need a repair in the future, I'm sure the local loft will still take your money for the work.

As far as the coiled furler extrusion is concerned, the coiling will have no effect on its performance if it is un-coiled properly. That is, allow it to uncoil slowly and naturally and allowed to acclimate to the temperature, etc. I'd actually be more concerned about an extrusion that might be hastily bent to fit in the delivery van then just as quickly straightened.

Edited by - John Russell on 01/15/2011 18:03:56

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2011 : 18:51:56

As their are so many C25's I do not believe the measuring is as important -- unless you are a hard core racer. I priced National and Ullman Ventura and went with Ullman because the price was about he same and Gary at Ullman is really a Catalina expert (read, knows the boats well) so his advise was excellent. I would have no qualms with National/Rolly Tasker either. If our boats were lower in number or racing driven I would think differently.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2011 : 19:49:39

If you feel comfortable doing the furler installation yourself and your sailing will be mostly casual sailing, you might want to seriously consider National Sail. I too purchased a Rolly Tasker 135 genoa from them and am happy with it.
Otherwise, go with the local guy and make good use of the installation and personal service, could be worth it initially.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2011 : 22:14:44

In almost all cases, the local sailmaker will be more expensive than ordering a sail over the internet or phone/mail-order. Seems many are happy with whatever sail they bought and whatever way they purchased. It is rare that I read a posting on this Forum from someone that was unhappy with their sail purchase no matter how they bought it. (One reason may be because they have no real way to compare the sail to anything as the years go by and it begins to stretch/wear.) Maybe for 20 positive experiences, there has been one negative experience. Something like that. Still, it is best when considering buying a sail, go with a sailmaker that you can check out some references....articles or postings by others helps somewhat.

There is also more to it than just buying a sail that is production made versus custom-made (that adds to the cost of some sails). There is quite a difference in cost but then again, you have these sails for many, many years...but again there is quite a difference in cost !

Sailcloth is a contributory portion of the cost and many sailmakers on the web are extremely vague as to exactly what sailcloth they are providing and/or exactly where that cloth falls between a Dacron weave that is less dense or more dense compared to ther weaves if they even offer other choices to compare what it costs for different quality cloth. This is sometimes because by sticking with one main sailcloth weave, they may get a better bulk purchase buy...and that is important if you want to be competitive selling your sails.

A tightly woven weave is much less prone to stretching (thru the years). The weight of a sailcloth by itself can also be misleading since a lighter weight tightly woven weave will hold up to stretching much better than a cheaper sailcloth that is not as tightly woven but has been coated with more resin to compensate and actually weighs more. It will hold up to stretching for awhile, but as the resin breaks down, then it stretches.

Some sails are made of Dimension Polyant but I do not believe I ever saw much in the way of data to compare it to anything. It may be a very good sailcloth but not sure if it comes in different grades or it is what it is. Many sails are made of Challenge Sailcloth and Challenge has a website that provides lot's of data to compare the various Dacon grades they sell and each cloth's susceptibility to stretching. The common grades of Challenge sailcloth are from least expensive(more prone to stretch) to most expensive (less prone to stretch) as follows: Challenge Performance, High Modulus, High Aspect & Marblehead. Mack Sails out of Florida and Quantum Sails (worldwide) mainly sell cruising sails out of Challenge High Aspect sailcoth but believe will also offer other grades. Practical sailor has had some past articles on sailmakers and some info on the sailcloth, so that is another reference. But Mack sails has a pretty good website with sailcloth info that is easier reading than the tech data on the Challenge website. (If you care to look at sailcloth details.)

I bought semi-locally from Quantum sails in Annapolis. They came down to my boat on the Potomac River and took dimensions for both a new Main and a new 150% furling rig Genoa. We talked a bit about what kind of sailing I do & how frequent, my preferences regarding reef holes, etc and a bit about sail cut. High Aspect sailcoth was recommended because I sail often...up to 3 times a week and also in the winter unless the river freezes for a period. The details of the sails are finalized in the Annapolis office and then sent to their Capetown, South Africa facility to be made up and then shipped back to Annapolis for inspection.

Edited by - on

two port feet
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2011 : 23:02:01

I’ve ordered sails from both Ullman, and FX sails and both worked out fine. There both sail makers that advertising in the Main Sheet. My reasoning behind my choosing was, if they really were interested in building quality sails for Catalina’s. They’d spend there advertisement dollars where a Catalina sailor or. Worked for me.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2011 : 07:48:11

Another option is to purchase a used sail from someone like Bacon and then let the local guy modify if needed and put in an extra reef point, and fix any remaining issues. For the same money as new sails, you could have tricked out used one season racing sails.

otherwise - buy off of the shelf from anyone... Measuring not required...

sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2011 : 10:27:35

Agree--measuring not required... But there are options and considerations that a local guy (or Gary Swenson because of his familiarity) will probably help you more to sort through. For a main, these could include the battens, reef points, loose vs. bolt foot (and out-haul system), roach size, and as mentioned, cloth. For a genoa they could include size (%), clew height (for racing or cruising), and some tailoring to the specific furler. If the sail ends up being built overseas, so what? The local guy will have specified it, will be responsible for it, and should be an excellent source for service later on.

As mentioned, if you're comfortable doing the furler installation, then maybe the $700 difference is a bit much... Getting a rigger to do it separately would probably be half of that. (I'm just guessing.) Everyone has a different comfort level about these things...

Think of this as "re-powering" your boat. Ask a powerboater about doing that... Mine would cost about $20K to re-power! (...just in case that perspective helps.

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/16/2011 10:35:17

islandplanet
Deckhand

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USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2011 : 20:19:25

What's being missed in this conversation about sails is material.
There's often a catch when you're getting a great deal on a sail.

Sailcloth manufacturers like Challenge, Dimension Polyant, and Bainbridge all have multi-tiered product lines. You can have three or four different choices of similar weight cloth with large differences in cost and quality. Further, all of these manufacturers are very conscientious about quality. When runs of material don't pass quality control they are sold off as seconds or manufacturer rejects. Certain lofts buy up the seconds and offer sails cheaply. What they don't tell you is that they're using seconds. As a sailmaker who has a lot of up close and personal experience with these things I'd be happy to share my perspectives privately. I've visited some of the Asian lofts mentioned and spent time on the production floor so I'm not shooting from the hip.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2011 : 21:51:34

Agree...but I feel kind of like giving everyone a break and not mentioning about the sailcloth matl anymore since given the choice of spending a bunch less from a sailmaker that many have had satisfied experiences with sounds a lot better than investigating sailcloth matl... and then getting influenced by it and winding up spending a whole lot more. It maybe hard to perceive getting a proportionate better performance for the extra cost...especially if you had in mind to not spend over a certain dollar limit for the new sail(s).

One reason I continue to mention about sailcloth matl is that you never know fully what is in the mind of the originating poster and given the above info, he may be just the person that wants to consider what each sailmaker is offering in the way of sailcloth matl...it is a contributing factor to the total cost and functional life (Dacron sails take many, many years to physically wear out but generally lose their shape much earlier in their life).

Edited by - OLarryR on 01/16/2011 21:52:49

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2011 : 06:09:45

Rolley Tasker sails are made in Tiawan.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">So the question...is the extra money worth it?? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Only if the people of Tiawan purchase what you make for a living. If not, better buy from the guy next door.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2011 : 06:27:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islandplanet
 What's being missed in this conversation about sails is material.
There's often a catch when you're getting a great deal on a sail.

Sailcloth manufacturers like Challenge, Dimension Polyant, and Bainbridge all have multi-tiered product lines. You can have three or four different choices of similar weight cloth with large differences in cost and quality. Further, all of these manufacturers are very conscientious about quality. When runs of material don't pass quality control they are sold off as seconds or manufacturer rejects. Certain lofts buy up the seconds and offer sails cheaply. What they don't tell you is that they're using seconds. As a sailmaker who has a lot of up close and personal experience with these things I'd be happy to share my perspectives privately. I've visited some of the Asian lofts mentioned and spent time on the production floor so I'm not shooting from the hip.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Excellent point - which is why I have always preferred well established lofts with multiple locations as they are less likely to buy seconds or mess around much. The pattern is on file and they either have it on a shelf or can whip one out in a week.

sten

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2011 : 07:46:12

Just for jollies, I went to Rolly Tasker sails since it is one that is mentioned in the above postings. Here is the website I checked out: http://rollytasker.com/en/our-sails/cruising-sails.aspx

Here is what I found listed under each heading of their different performance cruising sails descriptions:
Rolly Tasker Inshore Cruising - "Performance" Dacron; Rolly Tasker Coastal Cruising - "High Modulus", Rolly Tasker Offshore Cruising - "High Aspect" or "Marblehead" and Rolly Tasker Highest performance Cruising - "Warp Drive" or laminate.

This is a good guide to indicating that in the most minimal cruising, they recommend the lowest grade Challenge Material -"Performance". As you do increased cruising and will be out under higher wind conditions, then the higher quality Challenge Dacron grades are recommended.
Bottom line is that the lower grades are more susceptible to stretching. So...when getting a quote...don't you think it would be a good idea to find out what sailcloth material Rolly Tasker or other sailmaker mfr is offering you for that quote ?? Rolly Tasker is definitely selling their sails in all different grade sailcloth matl and so just indicating you got a sail from Rolly tasker for $300 less than other quotes really does not tell the whole story unless you know what matl you just bought. Now....if you are the type of sailor that goes out perhaps 15 times a summer and only in light winds, then you probably don't need a tightly woven Dacron and can get away with a lower matl grade more in line with your sailing needs. But at least you know the story once able to interpret what a mfr is indicating on their website.

Rolly Tasker at least provides decent info to make an informed choice as long as you understand what the words mean - Challenge sail matls being offered and different grades based on type of sailing. many sailmaker online websites do not break that info down.

Edited by - OLarryR on 01/17/2011 08:00:03

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2011 : 08:20:08

Since I was pleased with my original North Sails furling headsail, which was probably used for two decades, I replaced it with another North Sails off the shelf C25 135 genoa. It's made in Sri Lanka and sells for $715.00.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2011 : 10:04:38

Most sails are made offshore, even many smaller lofts buy, inspect, and modify/finish sails from overseas as their product. Going with a local sailmaker with references or an established large company is a personal choice, and either approach will get you a decent sail. Big companies still have a name to protect and should give you a sail recommendation based on your sailing style. I believe in supporting local services, but I can provide them with plenty of funding while still buying the major product from any established sailmaker. The local sailmaker can be extremely important to the racer, but most of us aren't concerned with seconds per mile and are more limited by skill than the ultimate sail. This is an avocation, not vocation, spend what you plan to spend because busting the budget might sail a little faster but won't enhance your overall happiness.

Edited by - on

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