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Thinking about a new motor

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Initially Posted - 11/27/2002 : 13:25:18

Harvey and I have been thinking about a new motor and have come to a bit of a dilemma. It appears that we are going to have to give in on something.

Here is what we want (it reminds me of my Father telling me that someday I will learn that what I want and what I get are two different things)

100 lbs or less, between 6 and 10 horsepower, has an electric start, and an alternator. We also require a shaft 25 inches or longer.

Preferably we want 4 stroke, so, as Jake Blues would say, "It runs good on reggler gas", we'd like to install a remote throttle, but thats not a big deal.

Based on the chart I whipped up, shown below (hopefully) If we just went with the weight, HP and shaft length it leaves us with A nissan 9.8 (tohatsu too, but made by nissan) or a mercury. None of which are 4 strokes.

Do my expectations seem ridiculous? (maybe you shouldn't answer that?) How much do your motors weigh? (currently we are at 78 lbs)? Have I overlooked any motors?

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cf06b3127cce92115ad232140000001410" border=0>

Without having a roll call of who's using what and without a brand name recitation, what would you all consider that required specs?

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

luckystar
Navigator

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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 13:40:15

Although I don't have the 25" shaft, I sure know I like my 2-stroke's 60lb. weight!! Much easier to pull up than my neighbors horrendous 15hp(!) 4 stroke that he now leaves in the water, even while sailing! That nissan 9.8 2-stroke in your list looks like it fits your needs (except 2-strokes being outlawed next year, if you get it now, it will be grandfather'd in from what I understand, I may be wrong, but I"m on a lake and no one really checks) It's still 60lbs too!

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR

Edited by - on

dgabel
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 13:42:15

I don't think you can get a 4-stroker that weighs under 100 lbs.

I'd get the one that has the longest shaft length in the HP range I'm looking for, and not be as concerned with the weight or the 2- v. 4-stroke question. You can rig some blocks and lines to lift the thing on and off the bracket, and to lift the motor and bracket to get it out of the water, as I did with the Nissan 9.9. Of course, if it gets too heavy, you might start to think about more reinforcing in the transom.

The electric start and alternator are great to have, BTW. I love them both, but I don't think they're deal breakers if you find something that, otherwise, does everything you want. Hand cranking that Nissan 9.9 is not a problem (starts on first or second pull every time).

Dave Gabel
Walkure Sail # 1484

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 13:44:58

Not against the law, just phased out by manufacturing laws...They have until 2006 to stop selling them...

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 14:00:54

Duane, Duane, Duane... You know the answer to that--"It depends."

Shaft length should be 25+" unless you're on a small lake. Weight will be more for a 4-stroke, more for electric start, and more the longer the shaft is. If you really WANT a 4-stroke, you'll be a little over 100 lbs for a high-thrust electric start Honda or Yamaha. If you want significantly lighter, you want a 2-stroke, but the shaft length is still an issue.

BTW, except for Honda, most of the specs I've seen give weights for the shortest shaft and usually w/o electric start. The XLS H/T Yamaha, for example, is a little heavier than what their spec sheet says.

How about the dealers? It's nice to have someone you trust.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 14:06:34

I thought Dave Bristle had done comprehensive research on this and ended up buying the Honda 8 HP 4-stroke with the extra long shaft . . . something I would consider if I were in the market.
You're considering a 2-stroke? In this day and age? Get out of town . . .

Instead of a matrix Duane I'd suggest an affinity diagram for this application <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> .

Edited by - OJ on 11/27/2002 17:34:01

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 14:15:51

osmepneo's Honda 8, 4 stroke, without electric start, not sure of shaft length weighs about 80 pounds.

Looking at your chart says that if you want a 4 stroke o/b weighing less than 100 pounds, you will not have an electric start. So it comes down to your priorities, which is more important, the question of weight or electric start and a four stroke.

For me the weight is not the issue, but I don't race, and I don't think I'd care so much about the weight if I did as having electric start. But that attitude is probably biased, based on my experience with my current o/b. (see other o/b posts)

Good luke with your decision. Keep us posted.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 14:17:46

BTW, what's that last column on your chart?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 19:30:51

Stepping onto soap box....er.... I think we have shot ourselves in the foot.

IMHO the weight issue is partly our collective fault for buying too much horse power over the last 10 years... I think Honda concluded from sales data, that weight wasn't an issue and decided to drop their 8 hp and make only a 9.9 Of course you can still get an 8....er I mean a 9.9 with 8 hp stamped on the side... but its 30 lbs heavier because its bore and stroke is for the 9.9...arghhh.

I have not seen the bore 'n stroke for a Yamaha...so don't know if its a true 8. Acutally, I think the market is ripe for someone to produce a quality 6 hp 4 stroke with high thrust prop with gear reduction and 28" shaft for sailboats at around 60 lbs and if it had a starter.... a frigging plug to disconnect.

I belive it would meet the needs of most sailboats 20-25' excepting those cruisers who might be concerned about the noise difference of running wide open on a six...compared to 1/3 throttle on a 9.9

I've seen this issue with model airplanes. A smaller motor using a gear reducer can drive a larger propeller on a slower moving aircraft better than a large heavy motor with direct drive and a smaller prop so as to not load it down.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 22:24:24

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Of course you can still get an 8....er I mean a 9.9 with 8 hp stamped on the side... but its 30 lbs heavier because its bore and stroke is for the 9.9...arghhh.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Actually, Arlyn, the new engine is a little heavier, but not quite 30 lbs. My old-style 8 was 82 lbs without electric start and with a long (medium) shaft. My new one is 108 lbs with electric start and an extra-long shaft. 10 of those 26 lbs are for the shaft length, and a few more lbs are for the electic starter and alternator that puts out twice as much. But there's no getting around it--it's heavy! (Although not quite as heavy as the comparable Yamaha, and much lighter than the Tohatsu/Merc/Nissan).

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/28/2002 09:50:57

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Douglas
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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 23:56:58

There is just no alternate to the Honda when you need the power in a pinch. Tide against the wind or wind with tide against you. You wouldn't want to try and do the San Juan Islands here in Washington with a 5Hp. Not to say you couldn't but it would just not be easy. Tide rips currents and adverse weather make it nice to have that little extra edge. Make the wife feel safer and just makes me feel good when I knew it was there.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 08:33:44

osmepneo's Honda 8, when it runs, gets the boat moving hull speed very, very quickly. Between 1/3 and 1/2 throttle.

On a lake, without tide and current considerations, an 8 (wheter a disguised 9.9 or not) is more than adequate. On the Hudson with tide and current considerations, I never needed to open the 8 more than 1/2 throttle to work through what slop nature offered. While I would rather have the extra power in a pinch, I would rather have a o/b I could depend on to start when I needed the extra power.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

lorensons
Deckhand

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4 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 16:33:28

Having just replaced an old Mercury 6hp with a Honda 5hp, 4 cycle, I can say that I am more then satisfied with the power that this motor provides. It certainly is more then the Mercury provided and if used on a lake it is more then adequate, which was something that I worried about, but was pleasantly surprised. My big reason for keeping the horsepower down was weight as taking the motor on and off the bracket every season is worth considering and the choice of a Honda was due to the strong recommendations it receives.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 22:42:00

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Having just replaced an old Mercury 6hp with a Honda 5hp, 4 cycle, I can say that I am more then satisfied with the power that this motor provides. It certainly is more then the Mercury provided and if used on a lake it is more then adequate...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
The key is the word "lake" (and not a Great Lake). When a C-25 starts pitching in a 3' or bigger chop, the Honda 5 doesn't have a long enough shaft--even if it has enough power. And I'll wager it takes at least twice as long to stop the boat as a high-thrust 8 does--which is fine as long as you aren't dealing with currents around docks. Some need the thrust, and some don't.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/28/2002 22:45:22

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/02/2002 : 08:12:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
BTW, what's that last column on your chart?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The last column is if It will fit my current motor mount (based solely on my guesstimation) horzontally without any additional augmentation. I planned on removing this field but forgot prior to making the chart a Jpeg.

Edited by - on

n/a
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Response Posted - 12/02/2002 : 09:49:04

I believe you can still get a Johnson Sailmaster 8hp with the XLS, but it's a 2-stroke and doesn't have electric start. It weighs ~78lbs.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 12/02/2002 : 10:34:32

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

The key is the word "lake" (and not a Great Lake). <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Very good Point Dave, This is something that I don't think a lot of the smaller inland lake sailors realize...(of course, technically by definition all lakes are inland)... The weather condiditions on the Great Lakes have been known to rival the high seas at times. 25" and minimum 6hp are a definite must.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/03/2002 : 15:05:47

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I think the market is ripe for someone to produce a quality 6 hp 4 stroke<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Arlyn brings up an excellent point. The issue of weight is extremely important to me during the 4+ times per year I remove/install the motor from the engine bracket for purposes of changing the lower unit oil. Periodic impeller replacement or other service/maintenance also may require removal/re-install.

One not mentioned here is the Suzuki 6 hp (4 stoke) -- specs say it's 61 lbs (long shaft). However, it doesn't come in extra long shaft or electric start. But I think electric start would add 15+ lbs to any engine. Also, while clearly an extra long shaft is superior in terms of cavitation prevention, it also adds significant weight, and there are a lot of sailboaters out there who are surviving quite nicely with merely a long shaft engine. Type and location of engine mounts, weight distribution and throttle control are among the ways they manage cavitation.

There was an interesting letter in the December issue of Practical Sailor which described a group of Chesapeake Bay sailors who advocate the use of really small motors. Their "regular" engine is a Honda 2 hp 4-stroke (27 lbs!) and their "high thrust" motor is a Yamaha 4 hp 4-stroke (under 50 lbs) to add the "feeling of security" for big chop/strong tide conditions. While probably lighter than our boats (C&C 25 and Wavelength 24), they seem to be doing fine in all conditions with these ultralights.

When a neighbor at my marina purchased a new dinghy engine, he bought a 3 hp 2-stroke Suzuki and sprung the extra $100+ for a long shaft so he could use it as a back-up to his main engine (which was old) on his Coronado 27. Several months later I saw him putter into the marina under the power of the small engine. While returning to LA Harbor from a midwinter cruise to San Diego under far from good conditions (dead into prevailing northwesterlies), his main engine died off Dana Point. When questioned how the little engine did, he simply shrugged his shoulders with a smile and explained "it wasn't fast, but hey, I was on vacation!".

While many of the points advocating 8 hp+, extra long shaft, electric start, etc. are absolutely valid, the above examples illustrate that what is a "need" for some is a personal "choice" for others -- it comes down to acknowledging your personal priorities.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/03/2002 : 15:33:09

The environment that we use our o/b's in has a significant impact on the choice of o/b that we get. It is not the only factor that effects what we get but it is certainly significant.

Small lakes suggest smaller o/b's

Great Lakes suggest something larger

Oceans suggest larger o/b's, not necessarily larger than Great Lakes.

That said, smaller may work in some severe conditions on the Great Lakes or the oceans, but are we comfortable with a smaller o/b in severe conditions.

Answering these questions is a matter of individual choice. For me, I'd go larger than smaller,

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - osmepneo on 12/03/2002 15:38:16

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/04/2002 : 09:29:28

It really IS about where and how you'll use an OB. Here on the Columbia River, we face currents that can run 3+ on an ebb tide. I want all the power I can get. Last spring, while heading single handed downriver for a regatta, I hit winds in excess of 40 knots, blowing against the big tide. Near "Cape Horn" (no joke) the waves were huge, but darkness was rapidly falling and the marina was only a few miles away, so I kept going rather than running off. Waves were consistently splashing WAY over the spreaders and the boat was pounded. I was SO glad I had a Yamaha 9.9 high thrust, 25" shaft and a great bracket. She never missed a beat, but even with the high thrust, she cavitated out of the water on a number of occasions. I had to slow down quite a bit, but could keep going.

When I got in, a guy on a Columbia 43 told me that day was the first time his big boat with diesel was ever stopped dead in the water by oncoming waves....including on the ocean. He was the one with the wind speed indicator. He raved about my engine and bracket assembly combo....

Personally, I wouldn't go with any other engine than what I have, for the conditions I am sometimes in, including the Strait of Juan de Fuca and Strait of Georgia in Canada. I MIGHT look at the new Hondas with the extra long, high thrust, but I have PROVEN the engine I have. Good luck

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

PS My "project" 25 was sold last summer to a friend who uses a Honda 5, and that is in tidal waters near Tacoma, WA. So far, he seems fine with it, but I don't think it's adequate except in pretty calm conditions......

Edited by - on

IndyJim
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Response Posted - 12/05/2002 : 00:04:20

Duane,
Here's my two cents worth. I just replaced an Evinrude 9.9 Yachtwin (2 stroke, electric start, alternator/generator, OMC Shifter) with a Yamaha 8hp 4 stroke. The only question I ponder is... What took me so freakin' long?

It's okay to call me a wuss but I have the extened tiller, long shaft, electric start, alternator, and get this... electric tilt!
I didn't go searching for power tilt, I just stumbled across a new one a dealer had in stock that met all my other requirements and the tilt was a bonus. I didn't think I'd really use the tilt feature. But I am spoiled bigtime! No more wrestling that outboard motor mount up and down!

I actually have more thrust with the Yamaha 8hp than I did with the old Evinrude 9.9. As for the 2 stroke/4 stroke question...
My 4 stroke is extremely quiet and fuel efficient! As I said, call me a wuss, but I'm spoiled!

IndyJim
"Itza Dew Sea"
'84 SK/TR #4525

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2002 : 19:13:49

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I actually have more thrust with the Yamaha 8hp than I did with the old Evinrude 9.9.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Jim: Hook your setup transom-to-transom with the same boat with a 15 hp 2-stroke, crank 'em up, and I'll bet yours will pull the other boat backwards.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
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Response Posted - 12/08/2002 : 11:33:07

I like the performance of the Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust, but I have heard that if the electric starter dies for some reason, there is no easy way to manually start it. I guess there is no manual pull rope? That would be a serious issue for me, as Murphy's Law guarantees that anything on a boat that requires electric power - like the starter motor on a boat engine - will fail at the worst possible time, like when you are trying to enter a crowded marina or pull up to a launch ramp dock in a strong cross wind. I have heard that the newest Hondas come in a High Thrust version, designed specifically as a sailboat auxilliary, and they DO have a manual pull rope in addition to the electric starter. In any event, DON'T get a two-stroke engine, especially if you might bring the boat to the West coast sometime. Two stroke boat engines are already banned on Lake Tahoe and Donner Lake, and the Cal-EPA is probably going to extend the ban to many more lakes and reservoirs over the next couple of years.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA
<lgcharlot@hotmail.com>

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2002 : 12:19:56

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I like the performance of the Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust, but I have heard that if the electric starter dies for some reason, there is no easy way to manually start it. I guess there is no manual pull rope?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I've pointed out before that the Yamaha H/T 8 has no external pull starter--I'm not certain about the H/T 9.9 (which is a later addition). If not, it probably has an emergency rope that can be wrapped around the flywheel, but to get to the flywheel on the 8, you must remove the cowling and unbolt the flywheel cover. (Keep that socket wrench handy!) Otherwise, it's a really nice engine--stylish without that little rubber handle on the front, but that DQ'd them for me.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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jellyfish
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Response Posted - 12/09/2002 : 17:23:47

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I believe you can still get a Johnson Sailmaster 8hp with the XLS, but it's a 2-stroke and doesn't have electric start. It weighs ~78lbs.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> that is what I have and very happy with. even though it does have electric start it is easy enough for April to crank on the first pull. great little inexpensive motor.

Edited by - on

tom
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/12/2002 : 20:39:13

honda 9.9 is a dream

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