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Outboard positioning

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petenich
Deckhand

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United Kingdom
13 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/19/2011 : 06:25:29

Good afternoon all.
I have been following this forum for just over a year now, and have found it to be a tremendously useful source of information and ideas/ mods for my Jaguar 25 which I sail in Wales in the UK. The members all appear to be very courteous, and behave impeccably towards each other, and there is no doubt more experience on this forum, all in one place, than most other boat-owners can ever expect to have available!
Hopefully will join the Association soon as an overseas member.
Whilst I can't provide advice on your local sailing conditions etc, I am glad to "chip in" if I have any experiences that I think may be of use!

**Edit** With postage costs, the mount from CD is nearly $450 US. Does anyone know of a mount available to source in the UK, that has the same 17" of travel that the Garhauer mount has - many thanks.
Now to the purpose of this, my first post.
I currently have my outboard (Tohatsu 9.8 2 stroke) mounted on the starboard side of the stern, on a mount which has never really had enough downward travel to sit the motor deep enough to provide constant drive, particularly with any kind of sea running, without cavitating out of the water.

I intend to buy the Garhauer mount from CD as I have read many good reports of it on this forum, but would appreciate guidance on the following 2 points:-

1. Do any owners of the Tohatsu 9.8 2 stroke, or equivalent engines, think that I should go for the 3 spring model, as this will future-proof me for when I inevitably upgrade to a 4 stroke?

2. Please could someone who lives near/ is at their boat on a regular basis measure how far down the bracket is actually mounted on their transom, and if possible how far in, ie how near to the rudder.

This will enable me to find the optimum positioning so as to give me maximum drive and efficiency, as well as ensuring that I can keep the motor out of the water as far as possible when alongside at the marina, in the tilted up position.

I appreciate that there will be subtle differences in actual position from boat to boat, given different weight distribution, however a guide/ opinions would be welcomed.

Apologies for the length of this initial post, hopefully the next will be shorter, and thanks in advance for your replies.

Pete
1979 Jaguar 25
SK
Sail # 575
Liverpool/ North Wales

Edited by - petenich on 03/19/2011 10:01:38

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2011 : 07:12:59

Hello Peter and welcome.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by petenich
 . . . how far down the bracket is actually mounted on their transom . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The vertical position is dictated by (1) the vertical travel of the bracket and (2) motor shaft length

http://ca.binnacle.com/pdf/Garelick-71057-manual.pdf

In addition to positioning the bracket so it doesn't interfere with the rudder - also consider what might interfere with the powerhead when the motor is in the raised position and tilted - like say a stern pulpit stanchion.

I also tend to position the bracket so the cavitation plate is a couple-three inches below the waterline so when the boat rocks fore-to-aft the water intake port on the motor does not come out of the water and suck in air - increasing the risk of overheating.

. . . the best laid schemes o' mice an' men . . .

Edited by - OJ on 03/19/2011 08:33:45

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2011 : 07:44:09

WOW - what comprehensive information!

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2011 : 08:31:03

Peter,

First, welcome to our forum. I don't think we've had a Jaguar owner visit us in the past. Can you post a photo of your cockpit? I am very interested in how the mid-boom traveler is set up.

I have a 1988 Evenrude YachtTwin 9.9 with extra long shaft and two spring motor mount. the mount is 6 1/4 inches from the bottom of the rub rail - the fiberglass that the rub rail is mounted on, and 13 1/2 inches from the pintals. I don't recall ever having a cavitation problem while under way with this set-up. If someone is on the bow while moored or at anchor the exhaust will sometimes pop out of the water though. Hope this helps.

Edited by - aeckhart on 03/19/2011 08:48:26

petenich
Deckhand

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United Kingdom
13 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2011 : 09:50:21

Good morning/ afternoon all.
A quick note to thank you for your kind welcome.

OJ - many thanks for your comprehensive reply and posting up the Garelick "instructions", together with the other info. It certainly helps put things in perspective.

Al - thanks also for your post and info - again I shall use this as a guide. Also, I'll post up some pics for you of Selkie, and her cockpit once I've worked out how to do it!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2011 : 10:07:38

Perhaps this will help:

The other thing you need to consider is access to the bolts from inside the boat. If the jaguar has the little shelf inside on the transom the 2 lower bolts will need to be above the shelf or else you will have a devil of a time getting to them.

When I changed to the mount in the pics, I was able to use the 2 holes closest to the rudder, but had to fill in the outer ones and drill 2 new holes a bit wider out. I didn't want to get closer to the rudder, plus the clamshell vent for the alternator cable was already there, and I didn't want to disturb it.
And yes, you want the motor to clear the stern rail support post when you tilt the motor up. mine just barely clears it.

Also, where my mount is and the mount's lift/drop of 11", I had to go with a motor with a 25" length shaft. The Merc in the pics was temporary, from our C-22; we now have a Nissan 9.8 hp 4 stroke with electric start (same motor as Tohatsu). With the 20" shaft, the cavitation plate was just barely touching the water at rest in the slip. It worked, but only if nobody went forward while motoring, which was unacceptable.

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/19/2011 10:25:06

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2011 : 10:42:56

Welcome, Pete! Since the Garhauer bracket was a factory standard for most C-25s (a few early ones got somewhat puny aluminum Fultons), Al's measurements are probably exactly what many others here have. It seems that those with extra-long (what they call 25") shafts have done well with that setup. Also, have you considered or priced the [url="http://www.garelick.com/product.php?pnumber=71091"]Garelick 71091[/url]? Several people here have been very happy with it.

I'll assume you'll opt for an XL when you buy a 4-stroke, but what length do you have now? (A "long" will measure about 22" from the top of the mounting plate to the anti-cavitation plate, and an extra-long will be about 27".)

I replaced a PO's bracket with the Fulton David shows, after carefully calculating the position both down and up (with the engine tilted one notch to clear the water), based on an XL shaft. I also mounted in on a Starboard plate like he shows, which I'd recommend for any bracket, along with an inside backing plate that has rounded corners and edges (because it's on a slightly concave surface). I was able to get the anticavitation plate about 5" below the waterline at rest, which worked very well in some big chop.

As to the horizontal position, I would mount it as far from the rudder as you reasonably can (considering the inside access), to prevent gouging. A few inches more or less offset will not affect performance.

The spring question I have to leave for those who have had the Garhauer, but it sounds like you have the right idea.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/19/2011 10:45:34

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2011 : 14:23:32

I went with a 4 spring Garhauer because I have a Honda 4 Stroke extra long shaft that is over 100 lbs. But if you wind up going with a Tohatsu 4 stroke, that outboard is much lighter and the 3 spring garhauer will work. I believe Catalina Direct (CD) has either a table or recommendations regarding outboard weight as to which garhauer bracket to purchase. I went with the Garhauer brcket because I had a 2 spring version and the 4 spring Model has the same bolt hole configuration/dimensions. My old outboard fit fine on the old bracket in the vertical up position, angled when sailing and in the lower locked position when using the outboard, so I was fine with the exisiting mounting location. I used a piece of starboard on the outside of the transom for extra transom reinforcement. I had purchased the stainless steel reinforcements from CD to mount on the inside of the transom but for some reason, the holes did not match, so I left it off. My transom does not seem any worse without it. Here are some photos of the new bracket with the old and new outboard:

Edited by - on

petenich
Deckhand

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United Kingdom
13 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 10:20:47

To all of you who have replied - thanks very much for the wealth of information and advice which is all gratefully received. There is clearly a huge wealth of wisdom and experience here, together with a willingness to share it, and for that I thank you all sincerely.

I hope to get over to the boat during the week, and will post some pictures, as well as check the length of shaft/ current positioning of the mount.

I had a look at the Garelick mount, having seen some good reports on here, and it seems to have a good length of "travel", ie 15 inches, however the Garhauer is reported to have 17 inches, so will probably go with that.

I will post back with my findings.

As an aside, I have tried to search the forum for how to post photos, but haven't had any success so far. Please could someone kindly point me in the right direction of a post with instructions. My PC uses Windows XP, and I don't have access to any file-sharing sites.

Photos bring posts to life, so I am keen to master this!

Thanks again one and all.

Edited by - on

Downbucket
Navigator

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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 10:35:11

Whew! For a moment, when I read the topic heading, "outboard positioning," I thought this was going to be another discussion on which side of the stern the outboard be placed.

Welcome Pete. From time to time, the question of where to place the outboard on the stern, port or starboard, surfaces. If you're interested, you can search the forums for some interesting reading.

Sorry I don't have anything to add on your topic. I think you've received some great help already.

When you have some time, would love to hear about your sailing experiences in England.

Will

Portland, Maine

Edited by - on

Downbucket
Navigator

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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 10:36:22

Edited by - on

Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
129 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 15:49:38

Hi, A comment on Motor Mounts. with the large seas and desire to motor sail on both tacks , a common practice is to mount the spring mount on sail track slides and that is then mounted on sail track on the stern this allows another 10 to 14 inch of travel for the motor . I used Aussie version of west-board ?? to mount the track with extra load bearing inside as well . The old mount waved around a lot in a big sea ..
My extra long tohatsu 9.8 hp 2 stroke is so mounted
..

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 16:46:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Boomeroo
 
..

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Interestesting combination of hardware Graeme . . . I've never see that. How do you control the up and down position on the tracks? Thanks for sharing.

Edited by - OJ on 03/20/2011 16:50:26

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 18:17:29

Graeme - I love that idea! Never seen it before. Please enlighten us all. Is there a block & Tackle on it to raise the OB on the tracks?

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2011 : 21:09:24

Pete,

To post photos, recommend visit the Testing Forum which is at the bottom of the Association Forum screen. There is a post there that explains how to post photos.

Edited by - on

Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
129 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 00:02:13

Hi, Yes there is a small tackle from the stern rail which gives a direct vertical lift. It is then much easier to use the bracket lift and then 3rd item is tilt .
With a bad back this is the only way I could safely use an outboard on such a high stern .
My previous yacht a sports type for ocean racing had this set up.,so I copied it.
Photo's !!@! this is my first fully succesful attempt thanks to some good advise from a number of helpers . I can send a copy in word from my email if reqiured.
Other Photo attached of old motor on track and motor sailing down Aust east coast with 3ft sea ( note dolphins )

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 07:13:46

Great idea. Can you post a closeup photo of how the sail track slides are attached to the motor mount? This approach might make it possible to effectively use a 20" shaft motor on th C-25.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
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Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 08:13:01

This would be a good Tech Tips topic here and in the Mainsheet.

Edited by - on

petenich
Deckhand

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United Kingdom
13 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 10:57:56

Hi Graeme - thanks for the post and advice. I quite like the idea of using tracks, as this could give even more flexibility in terms of depth of motor, and this would certainly help keep the cavitation plate well below the water when motor-sailing on the opposite tack.

I am interested in the arrangement for securing the mount at different stages, ie does it need to be fully up or fully down at any one time.

Great pictures, and further food for thought for me (and others it would seem!).

Thanks again to all for the advice and considerations.

I'm at Selkie later this week to do some maintenance, as well as taking various measurements, so I'll take some pictures to try and post up on here.

Regards to all,

Pete

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 11:12:57

I was also wondering, do you have the double keel arrangement that we saw frequently on our trip to Great Britain a few years ago? I've got a pic from Lynmouth (southwest England) of the harbour at low tide with a twin keel Jaguar 25 resting on the bottom.

Edited by - on

petenich
Deckhand

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United Kingdom
13 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 11:52:45

Hi David - no, mine is the single swing-keel version, which suits me fine as I don't need to take the ground (intentionally any way!).

I find it re-assuring having the keel down for most of my sailing, and only raise it for coming up the channel at the marina, where the outer sand banks of the channel are not always fully dredged, so it provides insurance if I have to move further over if someone else has been caught out by the changing depths/ channel!

Edited by - on

Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
129 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2011 : 23:33:42

Hi I am away at moment so slow replies .
The small tackle lowers it and the motor wt keeps it down I have it just in the water to start then uncleat and drop it to desired setting . usually full down until underway . if on port tack it stays down if starboard or sailing without I raise it 6 in .(Pete that's 150mm for us in modern countries).
Note from the photo's and hindsight I could have longer track but was using as many original holes in stern as possible ..

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2011 : 06:32:23

Original holes in treansom is a good point - I suppose it would be possible to attach the mount to a board, such that the whole board glides up and down on the slides for the full 152.4mm.

Do you ever have trouble with the T-slots jamming? Seems to me that when the boat is listing, the load would would be unbalanced on the slides, making it want to jam. Is a regular application of lubricant required? I wonder if I could mount some sort of a lazy susan between the board and the motor mount, making for a gimballed mount. Hmmmm...

I NEED to do this. LOVE IT!

Edited by - on

petenich
Deckhand

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United Kingdom
13 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2011 : 11:48:27

Good afternoon all,

Quick update for you. I went to Selkie earlier this week, and took a load of pictures so that you can see the configuration etc. Just need to get up to speed with posting - thanks for the guidance!

I have also ordered the 3 spring mount from Garhauer, together with the internal support "rails" to spread the load.

I'll be following all the advice from all your posts, so thanks very much again.

Al - if possible, please could you check the length of your Evinrude Yachtwin. I measured my Tohatsu 9.8 2-stroke, using the guide in the post, and mine is 23 inches in length.

I'll post pics in due course.

Have a safe weekend all.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2011 : 12:46:29

Your measurement should be from the inside of the mounting bracket, where the top of the motor mount board would be, to the cavitation plate just above the prop:
short shaft - approx. 15"
long shaft - approx. 20-22"
extra long shaft - 25-27"

So, if your motor measures 23", I would suspect it would be considered a long shaft motor.

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/26/2011 12:49:23

petenich
Deckhand

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United Kingdom
13 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2011 : 10:14:17

Thanks David,as always, for the advice.

Kind regards,
Peter

Edited by - on

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