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25-footer capsized in San Diego

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 07:07:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I consider it to be wrong for several reasons beyond its ballast.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

ditto.... But that's a good place to start...

And I sorta sailed on one once. Kinda tender and it was blowing, so we went back...

sten

Edited by - redviking on 03/31/2011 07:19:41

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 07:53:46

Only Mary Poppins is "practically perfect in every way."
It's easy to judge others.
This guy was far from perfect but, aren't we all? Everybody takes shortcuts, everybody doesn't know something, everybody thinks they're correct on occasions when they're dead wrong. We've all met people that believe "nothing bad is going to happen" when they do risky things. The many discussions about tow vehicles on this forum are a great example.

I agree that the boat was significantly overloaded and he should have known better. And, from the look of the photos with the bow out of the water, I'd bet that their was no ballast (lead, wood, stone or jello) in the hold. He made an error. Whether it was one of commision (by intentionally not adding ballast) or omission (he forgot) makes a difference. Is he evil, negligent or stupid? That's not for us to judge here.

Since the organization is in Indiana, I'm not clear whether the owner of the boat is Mr. Saidah, the founder with "40 years of sailing experience" or a volunteer. I'm guessing the latter is the case.

This photo (below) adds to the wonder about his judgment. I'm going to assume that kid on the bow is one of the special kids he's trying to serve. I won't let my very capable kid on the foredeck while underway.

From their website:

BTW, notice the absence of the boom. Did he replace his boom with a yard for that big square sail forward of the mast? Or, did he remove it to provide more room in the cockpit?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 08:09:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 ...BTW, notice the absence of the boom. Did he replace his boom with a yard for that big square sail forward of the mast? Or, did he remove it to provide more room in the cockpit?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ya, I noticed something funny on the bow-up picture--I couldn't figure out where the boom and main were, although the other boats made it confusing...

Now I think I see a raised pop-top. But what is that thing in front of the mast on John's pic?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/31/2011 08:11:19

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 08:20:44

From other forums it appears that when he sails he does it with jib only. The boom was probably removed for headroom - the risk of a boom hitting your head is probably lot greater when you overload a boat with newbies. The canvas attached to the shrouds is a promotional sign for the foundation.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 11:59:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 From other forums it appears that when he sails he does it with jib only. The boom was probably removed for headroom - the risk of a boom hitting your head is probably lot greater when you overload a boat with newbies. The canvas attached to the shrouds is a promotional sign for the foundation.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which makes the vessel a vessel for hire. It clearly looked like one when underway which made someone realize that they needed to take a picture of it's overloadedness. Where was the Coasties and Harbor Patrol?

Sten

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 12:23:24

I don't think it qualifies as a vessel for hire if nothing of value is exchanged - no money, no food, no drinks, no fuel, no tax depreciation.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 05:57:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 I don't think it qualifies as a vessel for hire if nothing of value is exchanged - no money, no food, no drinks, no fuel, no tax depreciation.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Heart of Sailing has sanitized its website because the evidence there was astounding, so I can no longer find the registration page where the suggested donation for a family was $110 and there was a $10 registration fee for each person. In addition, on some 1 hour tours, lunch was served for an additional fee. Sounds like money to me.

Here is how someone else did the math:

Now I don't think they get the full $110 donation, but even at $10/registration, that's $50-$90/outing times 7 per day is $350-$630/day minus gas (figure 8hrs running a 8-hp is 10 gallons ($40) moorage at $1.50/ft == $40 so Operating expenses is $80/day. 3000 miles round trip at 30cents/mile is $900 - amortized over a say 10 days of doing this is $90/day. so we have an average collection rate of say $480/day minus $170 in opex leaves $310 for the vacation. Now he says that 22% comes off the top for admin and fund raising so thats $105 off the $310 and we ae at $205 for Room ($120/night) leaving $15 for Brecky $15 lunch and $45 for din din.

Now the real question is what will the Coasties and the legal system do with this? It is rumored that Captain George is holding a 100 ton masters ticket, which would allow for more than the six passengers allowed by the Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels (OUPV/Captain's) License which allows the holder to carry up to six paying passengers on uninspected vessels. (The Coasties hate when you call it a 6 Pac by the way

)

SO, George could carry more than 6, but does he have to do so on an INSPECTED vessel? Note passenger vessels are approved for capacity. Will Captain G lose his ticket? Manslaughter at least?

Who is in this one legally otherwise? Macgreggor, the foundation, its board and Captain G I suppose. The bad news for the victims families is that the Founder, Captain G is the Director BUT the President is one John Shean - Lawyer... Who stated last night while shutting down the operation, "He went to turn back to the dock area and he felt a gust of wind," explained Shean.

He says Capt. Saidah dropped his only sail

so the wind wouldn't fill it and tip the boat. But it turned over anyway.

Shean said, "He thought he heard one of the men telling police when the line was released he grabbed the line."

If the passenger really grabbed that line Shean says it could have caused the boat to tip over, but two safety features should have prevented that.

The builder of the 1988 McGregor sail boat wonders if the captain filled the 12 hundred pound water ballast tank under the boat that's supposed to prevent rollovers. He charges the boat, with 10 aboard, was overloaded.

"But the manufacturer has posted no weight limits and posted no passenger limits," responds Shean.

He says Capt. Saidah told him the water ballast tank was full.

Ray Glowner father of a participant, says "The safety I think is good, very good."

Pass the popcorn...

sten

PS Do any of the 250's have weight/human limits posted? I don't think I saw it on the C25's, but I'm pretty sure my Zodiac is only rated for 4...

Edited by - redviking on 04/01/2011 06:00:27

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 07:51:34

From BoatUS: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Under the U.S. Coast Guard Federal Boat Safety Act of 1971, boats less than 20 feet powered with an inboard, outboard, or stern drive engine manufactured after November 1, 1972, must display a capacity plate defining the safe load limits. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think the captain and the foundation share culpability. Both were involved in advertising bookings up to eight people on that boat. Both should have known better.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/01/2011 07:53:30

piseas
Former Treasurer

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2017 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 16:03:17

The most recent cause of this tragedy is a wind gust. Check out this [url="http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/national_world&id=8040300&rss=rss-ktrk-article-8040300"]article[/url]. Make sure you read the part that says the number of people, 10, had no effect in causing the accident, as stated by the board president of the Sailing Foundation, because the owners manual of the boat, 1988 MacGregor , does not have a statement restricting the number of people on board. Hum, guess common sense is thrown overboard, in this case.
Steve A
PS I checked the manual of the C250 which states the following:
8. Do not take more than a safe number of persons aboard your boat when sailing.
I did not see any such mention for the C25 or Capri's.

Edited by - piseas on 04/01/2011 16:17:41

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 16:46:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 PS I checked the manual of the C250 which states the following:
8. Do not take more than a safe number of persons aboard your boat when sailing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And what is that number?

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 17:43:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">as stated by the board president of the Sailing Foundation<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And we know HE would have no reason to shift blame away from the real cause....

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 19:22:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...He says Capt. Saidah dropped his only sail

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 04/02/2011 : 05:50:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...He says Capt. Saidah dropped his only sail

so the wind wouldn't fill it and tip the boat. But it turned over anyway...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
He had no main, so his only sail was his jib. You can see it furled up on some of the pictures.

So just how do you "drop" a jib that's on a furler?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's just it - you can't "Drop" a furler jib just like that! And uh, sailing with just a Jib isn't really Sailing anyway, but I digress.

What the President of the Heart of Sorta Sailing Foundation basically said was - waiting for idiot translation program to give me the real story in english, oh wait, here it comes - "We don't have a freaking clue how to sail or know much of anything except that our Founder likes to travel about on other peoples dimes."

Burns my gut!

Oops - there is another idiot feed coming in.

"As far as I can tell, the boat was not overloaded because there was nothing posted on the boat or in the owner's manual limiting the passengers to less than 10 people," Shean said.

Why not put 15 people on it? Duck tape em to the sides for an hour? Make more money?

The San Diego schedule called for seven voyages Sunday. Shean said Saidah had been taking special needs children and their families out on one-hour sailing excursions all weekend before the accident with no trouble, Shean said.

9 people times JUST the $10 registration fee times 7 trips is $630!!! That doesn't include tips from grateful non boat owners who are somehow enchanted by this freak who actually believes endangering autistic kids is a good way to help them. Can you please pass the joint? I mean I will bet that at least one person on every ride gave him a fifty spot which makes his daily tax free cash business take in a GRAND! All with just a $2500 investment, a van and a website! Brilliant! Wow pot really does clear your head!

If these parents really want to take their kid sailing, walk a dock and find someone to take you...

And the more I hear about these idiots and their claims of a lack of knowledge of capacity/common sense, the more I get inclined to contact the NTSB meself and give an earful.

BTW - I watched the whole 1 hour Mac 26 video on their website. They kick out one of these death traps every four hours. Scary!!!

sten

Edited by - redviking on 04/02/2011 05:56:21

redviking
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Response Posted - 04/02/2011 : 06:06:18

I'll get some valium in a minute - but one other question?

You are SD Boat Police Officer or Coastie and you see a NJ boat with no boom, ten people on it and a banner advertising the Captains services. Don't you pull that thing over and at least check for 10 pfd's? Current sticker? Is the Captain drunk? Where in the heck was POpo???

Viking sharpening sword!

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 04/02/2011 : 06:10:05

Put a bit of feeling into it Sten

Thought for a moment that I was reading SA.

Must admit, it's nice to hear someone say what they mean and to heck with the P.C. attitude. Maybe if we all (sailors and others) spoke up about the N.P.O's that are way off course and veered towards making profit in the form of salary's. Well!

Ok, back to my humble PC cave

Paul

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 04/02/2011 : 06:44:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Put a bit of feeling into it Sten

Paul

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm just getting started Paul. I have a zero tolerance policy for poor seamanship - nevermind BAD seamanship. Compound that with a crackhead vessel choice, stir in a little non-profit BS and toss a silly Captains hat on top and I will want to be on that JURY OF YOUR PEERS! I'll keel haul you for sure! Oh wait, we are not PEERS 'cuz I actually know - most of the time - what I am doing.

Sailing or boating in general can be hazardous to your longevity. Post that sticker on your boat! You can die! Period! You can die driving your car too, but we hold people accountable for their actions behind the wheel. Somehow, if something happens while you are on a boat, the perception is that it was tragic, but that there isn't really a way to hold the Captain accountable. Happens almost every incident.

Captains should be held very accountable. Think about that every time you go out. You are accountable if you ef up.... At least to me!

sten

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/02/2011 : 06:51:27

Ordinarily I don't like to second-guess the skippers of boats in distress, from the vantage point of my sofa, but this guy did so many things so obviously wrong, it's an exception. In another thread, we just talked about how difficult it is to knock a ballasted sailboat down, unless you do something really dumb, but this guy managed to do it without even using a mainsail. His judgment was bad in overloading the boat, in trying to sail a grossly overloaded boat in gusty winter winds, in not furling his sail in those conditions, in operating a boat for hire without a license, and he demonstrated a lack of boat handling skill, by allowing a gust of wind to capsize a ballasted sailboat.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2011 : 08:46:06

From another local article... <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">However, Roger MacGregor, the maker of the boat built in 1988, challenged the wisdom of putting 10 people onboard and questioned whether water ballast, which helps the ship automatically right itself, was properly filled.

MacGregor, of Costa Mesa-based MacGregor Yacht Corp., said authorities had called him several times during their investigation with questions about the boat.

He told The Associated Press the model had no specifications on weight limit or number of passengers but could become dangerously unstable with 10 people onboard.

The number of people who could be safely accommodated also would depend on wind and wave conditions and the experience level of the passengers, he said. If passengers stayed still at the center of the boat, more could safely ride, he said.

"It's a relatively small boat. The weight of the people outweighs the ballast on the boat if you give an average of 145 pounds or so per person," MacGregor said. "It was grossly overloaded in my opinion. There's nowhere for them to sit."

Shean insisted the ballast was full and contended the boat was not overloaded.

Saidah "had sailed without incident many times with nine passengers and himself, and if the manufacturer believes that it is grossly overloaded to have 10 people on the boat then they should have notified through some warning or manual or notice," Shean said.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Another question: Is this a Mac 25 or a Mac 26? According to an owner's site I found, the 25, built during the 70s and 80s, is not water ballasted--it has a steel swing keel for ballast. I have't been able to find specs on the weight.

To my knowledge (??), the Mac "26" (X and M) is the later, water-ballasted power/sailboat that can take a 50 hp outboard centered on the transom, flanked by twin rudders. The bow is more plumb, the cabin trunk looks like a Euro-megayacht,... A totally different boat (just as the C-25 and C-250 are, but more so.) That boat looks like a Mac 25 to me--conventional deadlights on the cabin, offset outboard mount, low stainless rails on the coamings, raked, somewhat rounded bow, etc...

Did Roger get the wrong information? The reporters? Does anybody know for sure what they're talking about?

In any case, Roger and we are right--way too many people, and a tag shouldn't be required to determine that. Look at that cockpit--you can't sail the boat with that crowd, especially if some are autistic or Down Syndrome kids, etc. Look at the bow--the boat is unstable and shouldn't have left the dock, sails or no sails. The video shows pretty benign conditions, with <1' waves and no signs of puffs...

Yug.

EDIT: OK, I found an early Mac 26 (no letter designation) from the late '80s, water-ballasted, with lines like the earlier 25 (not the 26X). They say this one's an '88, so apparently it is WB.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/02/2011 09:01:52

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/02/2011 : 13:40:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 EDIT: OK, I found an early Mac 26 (no letter designation) from the late '80s, water-ballasted, with lines like the earlier 25 (not the 26X). They say this one's an '88, so apparently it is WB.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

26S

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2011 : 08:27:51

...or 26DS (for Doesn't Sink).

Edited by - on

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