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New Sailor - Stability question

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bm1981
Deckhand

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Initially Posted - 03/31/2011 : 13:54:10

Hey All,

I ran a few searches but didn't find what I was looking for so forgive me if this was already covered. I'm a new Sailor having completed my ASA 101 course last year on a Ensign 23. Very stable, not having much to compare it too my instructor told us that it was impossible for the boat to capsize unless you were doing something silly. I asked if i could test it and sheeted in headed up and barley got the rail in the water before the heel diminished the sail area and we flattened out. Fast forward 3 weeks and I'm a proud owner of an O'day DaySailer -dinghy-and on our maiden voyage (very long story short) my hull had a leak inside the cockpit' bailer well and partially flooded the bilge and on my second tack the water sloshing from port to starboard took us over. Shallow water prevented turtling but the bay was full of Jellies and we were all stung to hell before we could get the sail down and boat righted.

So now I have a Fiance who is very apprehensive about sailing and granted I'm in a dinghy on a pretty large bay, but from a stability standpoint how resistant to knockdowns are the 25's and 250's? And SK vs WK How effective is the SK while up from a righting perspective not pointing. My concern is Barnegat Bay in NJ is pretty shallow between rt37 and Mantalookin bridges.

I'm not looking to singlehand all the time but how easy is this boat to handle for a novice? I know they say small boats make the sailor but I'm looking for something forgiving to cruise around the bay without worry of going over.

Thanks all for the advice on the Catalina or the DaySailer

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 14:34:10

Few of us would ever sail a swinger with the keel up more than a couple of turns. The swinger's advantage is that you can have a deep keel that can be raised to get off ground or motor in shallow water. The wing offers shallow draft while sailing with a slight sacrifice in performance but no maintenance. Regardless of the keel configuration, the C-25 is a very stable boat that will round up before a knockdown, but you could probably put a sail in the water if you were really on the edge and something unexpected happened. It would be brief and she would immediately get back on her feet. I was over 70º - 80º once in a difficult situation, but Pearl took care of us, and my wife, standing on the side deck, only got her feet wet.

I single hand a lot in the winter, and I think a relative newbie would master it with little difficulty. It is an easily handled and forgiving boat and very comfortable for its size at anchor or in a slip. I looked at a lot of boats in the past year while considering moving up to a 30', and my impression is that Catalina makes better use of the available space better than its competitors. I've always had a spot in my heart for O'days, but having this forum and a manufacturer still in business makes the Catalina an easy choice for me.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 03/31/2011 14:44:55

Davy J
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 14:52:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">but you could probably put a sail in the water if you were really on the edge and something unexpected happened.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Even with sails in the water, you should be fine; capri 25:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whSHw4k2yLo

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 15:02:48

The O'Day Daysailer is completely unballasted--in fact the centerboard practically floats (unless it has become water-logged). What you experienced will not happen on a C-25 or C-250 unless, on the water-ballast C-250, you try sailing with the tank empty or partially full (in which case it acts like the water you had in the Daysailer bilge).

The C-25 wing keel is a 1750 lb. hunk of lead, with most of the weight down where the wings are. It's quite shallow, but will pull you back up even after you've had green water over the coaming. But it's pretty tough to get to that point--for one thing, when the rudder loses its bite, the boat will round up into the wind. The C-25 wing draws only 2'10", which is only a couple of inches more than the fully-raised swing keel (which draws 5' down). The C-250 wing is a little lighter and a little deeper. The C-250 Water Ballast has a centerboard that contributes very little as ballast--it's all the water in the tank in the hull.

To sum up, I don't recall a single story among our participants here of a C-25 or C-250, any keel, being capsized beyond its ability to recover. One did in Colorado years ago, but I recall it had 14 people on board, at night, probably well-lubricated... a ridiculous scenario. They probably were hanging on to the mast as it went over, so water entered the cabin or port locker, and the game was over.

We "graduated" from an O'Day Daysailer to our C-25 fin on Long Island Sound--it was a whole different kind of sailing--just as easy, but virtually worry-free with regard to heeling and broaching. Whatever the wind, there was a heel angle where the sails and the ballast balanced each other--it would go no further. I usually helmed from the leeward side, for better visibility--the boat didn't care. Reefing sometimes made things more comfortable, and sailing on the genoa alone (more speed with less heel than the main alone) was very relaxing on a blustery day, but the boat could always take more than we could.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/31/2011 15:18:24

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 15:21:32

I went from an O'Day Daysailer to a 250. Great move. Never been close to being knocked down yet but I don't foresee it happening. The 250 rounds up pretty readily when there's too much canvas up. I understand the C25 is less tender than the 250 but I've not sailed one to compare. I've never felt unsafe aboard Kaija. Maybe a little uncomfortable once in a while in ugly chop but, never unsafe.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 15:40:24

Any sailboat can suffer a knockdown under the right circumstances. The Catalina 25 is similar to the Ensign 23, in that you have to do something pretty silly to knock it down. I did that with my fin keel C25 numerous times, mainly just to see what would happen. Whether it rounds up or not depends, to a large extent, on how the rig is tuned. Usually, mine didn't round up. As the wind increased, the boat increased it's angle of heel until it pulled the rudder out of the water. Then it laid there on it's side until either the wind lulled, or I eased the mainsheet. Nothing ever broke. The cockpit never filled with water. Occasionally a dollop of water would splash over the cockpit coaming when the jibsheet winch on the leeward side was submerged. On a couple of occasions, the lid on the leeward cockpit locker flew open, which suggests that the hasp should be secured in heavy weathber. I was very pleased that the boat behaved so well, and that nothing bad happened.

Now, about that fiance.... It isn't uncommon for women to be very uncomfortable about the heeling of a sailboat. In time, they often become accustomed to it, and gain confidence in the boat, as well as your ability to control it. Meanwhile, do yourself a favor, and sail the boat so as to minimize heeling whenever she is aboard. If you scare her off, you'll lose your sailing partner, and that means you won't get to share the most beautiful and special sailing moments with her.

Edited by - on

bm1981
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 15:43:00

Guys, thanks for the input.

During the off season I've done a ton of homework and realize that I can refine my skills more on the DS for the next year or so. Not that I have been doing things necessarily wrong, but can improve upon the way I was doing them. For instance, sitting closer to the bow, and on the rail not in the seats to compensate for heel.

The CB, well it's 30 years old and waterlogged so once its down it's down. Getting the CB back up is the trick. I've also got a theory that that 30 year old foam is really ballast so I've got a cockpit full of soda bottles and a 6" hole saw waiting on a warm day. On a 500LB dry boat i may have 200LB in wet foam.

I've got about the simplest rigging you can have, hylards and sheets that's it. The boat came rigged w/ a vang but mine doesn't have one. Noob question... the vang is most useful when sailing DW to prevent the boom from rising? I hate sailing DDW for fear of accidental Jibe, plus the shrouds hit the sail before the boom is fully out. With 30 year old sails i try to avoid rubbing at all costs.

I figure I'll sail this one, rent bigger ones, then in 2 years upgrade unless I find a jem.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 18:33:24

My O'Day was on a trailer and I assume yours is as well. I'd suggest trailering it to smaller water while you hone your skills. I moved up because the boat was too small for the water I was sailing it on. I'd likely still have it if I lived nearer to a smaller body of water.

Your rigging is referred to as "standing rigging" and "running rigging". The running rigging is as you described, the halyards and sheets. The standard rigging is the stays fore and aft and the shrouds port and starboard. The stays and shrouds are stainless steel and should be inspected regularly (particularly at the swages) for rusting and failure. If the standing rigging fails, your mast will fall -- a real dangerous event.

The boom vang is used to control the boom as you described but, not just for DDW sailing. It can be very useful for managing sail shape in a variety of conditions.

I encourage you to hang around this site. You'll learn a lot. And there are a lot of friendly folks. You may even find the ideal boat in our Swap Meet section. But, I'd also recommend visiting [url="http://www.daysailer.org/"]Daysailer.org[/url]. They were very helpful to me.

I also found [url="http://www.drmarine.com/default.asp"]these guys[/url] helpful for parts.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 18:46:08

I think you're on the right track, Bob... You'll sharpen your skills faster on the little, unballasted, more responsive boat. And Significant Others aside, it's flat-out more fun!

Speaking of the S.O., or who another regular here calls SWMBO, my experience is that the best way to mitigate fear of heeling ("tipping/capsizing") is to get her to (1) handle the mainsheet and see how the boat responds to that, and then (2) handle the helm. In both cases, have her see what happens when she simply lets go, as well as eases/turns up just a little. Start this on a light-to-moderate day, and work up... but not too fast. After a while, go out on a dead day--I'll bet she says she wishes the boat would heel a little and GO!

That's the sign that you're over the hump, and she understands sailing at the visceral level that makes a person comfortable on a sailboat.

But first, find and fix that leak!

And let's get you on a real boat (that's intended for really exploring Barnegat) soon!

And John is right about D&R Marine--they made a new cenerboard for me. Mine expanded due to water intrusion and freezing, and couldn't fit in the trunk--a problem for getting her on the trailer! The new one was totally solid fiberglass--heavier and stronger than the original. Also, I found that when raising my board (and there have been several setups for doing it), it helped to keep the lowering line from going slack as I pulled the board up, so a line wouldn't get caught next to the board in the trunk.

Now what's with this foam? Somebody must have added it--it's not a factory feature to my knowledge. If it's high (under the deck) and wet, it's negative ballast. If it's low (under the liner), it's negative flotation, which will cause the boat to turtle instead of righting or staying on its side. Depending on its placement and condition, you might want to remove it.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/31/2011 19:01:32

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 19:18:28

Oh, and about the vang... It will help keep the sail off the shroud by flattening it better than the mainsheet can going down-wind. But the position of the shrouds (due to no backstay) means that the sail is probably going to touch them at times. They should be pretty harmless to the fabric. If they have meat-hooks, replace them.) Make sure you have rubber boots on the ends of the spreaders.

Dead down wind is indeed not the best idea in the general case... A stray gust could cause a jibe, and without a spinnaker, it's the slowest point of sail (and the hottest in summer). Did you learn the "S curve" jibe (hauling in the sheet) and the "chicken jibe" (270 degree turn into the wind)? The former makes things comfortable and safe on all boats, and the latter is useful on a little boat in bigger wind.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/31/2011 19:19:47

bm1981
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 06:22:10

Guys thanks for all the input, I've been hanging around the DS website for a while, and have learned a ton from those guys about my particular boat.

About the flotation, I have a DSII which is the 2 piece hull version. The bow and each of the seat tanks are are filled with foam 2x4's as well as a few under the deck visible through the inspection ports. I've pulled out 2 brick sized pieces from there, one was the proper weight for Styrofoam the other was waterlogged and weighted as much as a brick. So for the cost of 6 inspection ports I'm going to replace it all. The Crack was repaired by the marina that i purchased the boat from, 1/2 inch along the transom, amazing that that small of a crack could suck in that much water in 30 minutes.

For the rigging, some of the DS crowd has very complex setups, while mine is a basic as you can get. When sailing DW I typically S curve jibe, I like being able to "catch" a jibe by sheeting in like crazy. Plus I don't sail that that close to DDW, I had one accidental jibe on a wind shift and that really threw off boats balance. Since Most of my sails have no particular destination, I don't mind sailing off by a few more degrees. I have also chicken jibed when the wind / waves really picked up. I've had my forward progress stopped by a wave before.

Knock on wood, I'm on the waitlist for a dry slip at the municipal beach. So for the SO she can come hop on the boat and not worry about the rig up time and trailer launch. Stink, you are right on the money, with letting her sail the boat, last year she had no interest in it, but on out last sail she agreed that this year she wants to learn. So it will be a few land sails and some early mornings in the shallows when the wind is very still.

Being more fun, you are right about that 2 days after Hurricane Earl passed through NJ, the bay flattened out but the wind was still strong and I was just about able to get on plain. The boat wasn't balanced but we were able to get the bow up and start throwing a wake. From that point I was hooked.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 06:29:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Any sailboat can suffer a knockdown under the right circumstances.

Now, about that fiance.... It isn't uncommon for women to be very uncomfortable about the heeling of a sailboat. In time, they often become accustomed to it, and gain confidence in the boat, as well as your ability to control it. Meanwhile, do yourself a favor, and sail the boat so as to minimize heeling whenever she is aboard. If you scare her off, you'll lose your sailing partner, and that means you won't get to share the most beautiful and special sailing moments with her.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yep - do it right and they get hooked. My Kansas City bride ties a bowline faster than I do now and does her overnights et al. After a few good blows on our C25 she felt even more confident. Now when I am fooling around and try to put a rail in the water, she doesn't mind - for awhile.... Must admit that she has gotten more accustomed to 15 degrees of heel than when on our C25. She used to say that life began at 30 - degrees that is...

sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 07:06:09

One more thing to consider regarding learning to sail... Sometimes having "the guy" teach "his girl" doesn't work so well. An uninvolved instructor can make the experience much smoother, eliminating much of the pressure and potential for embarrassment, which in turn helps her get comfortable with sailing much more quickly. The pro is less likely to bark something to her... and "what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas."

Just a thought. (I successfully taught my late wife, and I guess Sten taught his, but I've known many others for whom it didn't go so well. I suspect you can imagine...

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 07:16:58

Bob - I keep my boat on the Barnegat bay in Lanoka Harbor (Laurel Harbor Marina). Assuming that they repair the winter's significant ice damage to my marina and I can get the boat in the water, I would be happy to have you and your fiance join me for a sail anytime this season. The C-25 SK is a great boat for the Barnegat Bay. If it gets a little shallow...no problem, just take a few cranks on the keel winch and off you go!

I won't be held responsible if your significant other starts to pester you for a bigger boat!

You can email me at pat at duffyfamily dot org.

Edited by - on

calden
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 07:46:26

DAY SAILERS! I had one for three years and LOVED it! I came to it from sailing a Sunfish, so it felt really big and stable. I sold it to move up, but wish I had not.

I had the DS I, so I could tell much more easily if any water was ingressing - which it was not. But it had floatation in the seats which I replaced with bargain-bought pool noodles. Highly recommend that fix. Great, great boat, but you do have to watch the windspeed.

I moved up to a San Juan 21, and now have a Catalina 25. which I have sailed in 35 mph winds (gusting to 40) with storm jib and reefed main and felt totally stable and comfortable. It is a completely different experience - the tacks and gybes are slower and more predictable, the heeling is slower and stiffer as well.

But do not sell your Daysailer. I love my C25 but really miss taking off at 7 in the morning for a day of trailering and sailing.

By the way, I still miss the DS website. I was pretty active for a couple of years. Great class of boats.

Carlos

Edited by - calden on 04/01/2011 07:54:10

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 07:49:41

We've had sailboats (25 footers) for around 17 years and our C25 for the last ten years. My wife absolutely knows the boat is not going to flip over and sink, yet she has severe panic attacks everytime we begin to heel over a few degrees. She also knows no amount of instruction (or therapy or meds

) will cure her. Same goes for spiders. She knows the itsy, bitsy micro spider on the basement wall is not going to harm her, but nevertheless she screams and wants it killed immediatley with either an elephant gun or a molatov cocktail.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 08:03:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Just a thought. (I successfully taught my late wife, and I guess Sten taught his, but I've known many others for whom it didn't go so well. I suspect you can imagine...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Um yeah, so true.... I have toyed with paying for an all womans class, but I don't really yell and she and I have gotten used to Ma'aming and Siring a lot...

The reality is that communication between couples, even experienced couples like us, NOW after 7 years of wedded bliss and a lot of sea time - is really difficult anyway. We still have our moments. "Sometime before I get old!" is a frequent contributor, followed closely by "Working!" which is used immediately after the former command. Commands are a way of life.

I remember the story of a husband who was allowed to go on an all womens trip and was instructed not to yell. Something happened and he went forward to straighten it out and nobody could understand what he needed. Finally the woman at the helm shouted, "Will you just freaking yell already!"

My advice is temper your communication, obviously. But make it clear that sailing isn't all nonchalant. It's not golf - and you should hear the potty mouths on those guys - it's a little more exciting than that.

"Sweetie, just so you know - sometimes I might sound angry or frustrated, but really it is just part of the program. I will sound a bit edgy when there is something to do and I need your help. We are a team. You will undoubtedly sound the same when you get a wee bit outside of your comfort zone."

Then let her drive! Soon you'll sound just like the rest of us - or you'll buy "marraige Savers" which are walkie talkies....

sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 08:06:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bm1981
 ...About the flotation, I have a DSII which is the 2 piece hull version. The bow and each of the seat tanks are are filled with foam 2x4's as well as a few under the deck visible through the inspection ports...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I had the DS/II too (not 22--also) but don't recall the foam--maybe it was there. When you replace it, use closed-cell polyethylene, not styrofoam.

Also, I'd check for leakage around the CB trunk and pin. You should be able to see it from the inpsection ports on the sole. But the D/S site knows a lot more about that than I remember.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/01/2011 08:08:10

bm1981
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 09:56:04

Dave,

You are correct about the CB Bolt, however on mine there is a CB pin, held in from below by 2 screws and a plate on each side. I figured that out after 2 hours of looking for the bolt. I plan on careening the boat in my yard in the next few weeks to bottom paint it and will look for any obvious weak spots and reseal some of the adhesive that cracked out of the deck hull joint. Sometimes its good to have a 500LB boat.

So if any of you guys want to buzz around Banrnegat in a DSII the invite is open.

I do have a problem of expressing my commands with a little too much authority some times. Call it fear of sinking (again) but that's something that I have to work on. Just pulling the main down or something simple like that has ruined many a good sail...

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 11:48:58

Speaking of pulling things down, on my D/S, I added a "dousing line" (or what some call a "downhaul") to my jib--a small block by the stem fitting and a thin line (like 3/16") tied to the topmost hank (not the head of the sail), then led through the block back to the cockpit, were I had a little cam cleat on the cuddy. I usually led the line through one other hank, just to keep it from flopping around.

So I could pull the jib down and keep it down without having to go to the foredeck. (Sometimes, motoring into a strong wind, the jib wants to climb back up the forestay.)

Edited by - on

bm1981
Deckhand

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8 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 12:29:02

So unprovoked the SO said that she loved sailing, just isn't sure about the DS but liked the Ensign.. So in my premarital brain I see that as permission to get a bigger boat?...Right?

Dave, you are just the wealth of DS knowledge and in line with some of my spring projects. Dousing line (repurposed topping lift) and then running the halyards to a deck block / cam cleat to make it easier to singlehand and then rerouting the jib sheets to cam cleats on the CB trunk and not the jib cars...they are at an awkward angle. I'll post up some pics when I get down to business.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 14:27:06

Get a Hobie 16. Lots of fun, will teach you alot about sailing, and is stable unless you get stupid (or let your hair down and have some fun).

Edited by - on

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