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25-footer capsized in San Diego

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/28/2011 : 05:35:43

I hope this is not one of our members:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/03/28/california.capsized.boat/index.html?hpt=T2

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 05:44:06

Keel failure? I don't see any evidence of a keel?

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 06:42:34

My local paper said it was a possible rental boat. I dont see a keel either which makes me wonder about maintaince, especially if it is a rental boat. It was a 35ft sailboat with 10 on board, 2 older men died. Accident occured around 5pm. More to come I am sure.

Steve A

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 07:30:34

From the look of the bottom paint, it doesn't look like a keel fell off. Are we sure it's a sailboat?

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cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 07:34:39

Looking at the video, and comparing the rescue boat sizes to the capsized boat, it looks more like a 25 footer than a 35 footer, but it hard to say.

I did a framegrab of the video and zoomed in a bit. Image is still rather poor, but it looks like two stub keels or angled twin daggerboards (retracted) come out from the hull, and no swing keel trunk or faired protrusion for a normal fin keel. That would jive with what looks like a really small wetted area based on the antifouling paint that shows.

Chuck

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 07:50:42

Going [url="http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=120284"]view on Sailing Anarchy is a MacGregor 26[/url]. As always, visit SA at your own risk, there are many side arguments and obscenities.

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 10:50:09

Another news report says its a rental 25' sailboat. But definitely 10 people aboard. I am sure kids had on life vests which saved their lives. Cant say same for 2 older male adults.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 03/28/2011 10:52:26

superbob
Navigator

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USA
200 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 14:59:08

This from an LA on-line paper:

"SAN DIEGO — Investigators tried Monday to determine why a rented sailboat capsized in calm water and good weather in San Diego Bay, killing two men and injuring eight others who were thrown into the water.

The accident occurred Sunday near a buoy marking the way from a protected inlet to the channel of the bay.

There were no indications of a collision with another boat. Video footage appeared to show the 25-foot boat had a retractable rudder, but it was not immediately clear if it was down at the time.

A boat that size should hold six people maximum, but with 10 aboard, there would be scant room for everyone to sit down, said Chris Tucker, owner of SailTime Channel Islands in Oxnard.

"With that many people, if four people were told to sit over there and the other people got up, that would be enough instability right there," he said. "I'm amazed they didn't sink right where they all got on. That's just overloading the boat."

The boat was carrying five men, three women and two children, a 10-year-old girl and an 11-year-old boy, authorities said. Their names were not immediately released, and it was not immediately clear if they were wearing lifejackets.

Two men in their 50s or 60s were declared dead at the scene, and the other eight people were taken to hospitals. The children were released after being treated briefly, San Diego Fire-Rescue spokesman Maurice Luque said.

None of the injuries was life-threatening, he said.

A witness said the rescue scene was chaotic."

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 17:42:47

Here's the alleged boat, clearly a MacGregor

Edited by - OJ on 03/28/2011 17:55:29

jml
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 18:16:06

That's horrible news. From what I read they were sailing without their keel down and with the jib only. I can only guess that none of them had much sailing experience, especially allowing ten people on a 26ft boat.

http://www.10news.com/news/27339171/detail.html

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 18:38:26

Judging by the shape of the hull, it appears to be a water ballasted boat with a centerboard. Centerboards don't really add any real ballast.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 18:47:04

That looks exactly like my brother's Macgregor 26D water ballast sailboat. His has a vertical daggerboard, but some models have a fully-retractible swinging centerboard which is why you don't see a swing keel. That is a boat that doesn't weigh too much more than a C-22 if the ballast tank is empty. I can't help but wonder if the people took it out without first flooding the ballast tank! In any event, there were way too many people on that boat.

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 19:29:26

I'm not trying to justify flawed thinking here, but is it possible the skipper thought leaving the ballast tank empty would increase buoyancy so he could carry more passengers? Obviously the weight would be totally in the wrong place in this case.

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pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 06:28:27

My brother's MacGregor feels unstable even when the tank is full. I'm willing to bet that Dave has it right...empty or partially full ballast tank + too many people = disaster.

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superbob
Navigator

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USA
200 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 07:32:38

After sailing a Hobie 16 for 15 years I purchased new a 1992 Macgregor and sailed it for about 3 years on Lake Tahoe, San Francisco Bay and Clear Lake California. Not a bad boat although it felt at times that I was captain of a fiberglass stall shower with sails.

On one particular outing and on leaving the launch ramp with hoisted sails (light winds) the boat felt more than a bit squirrelly. On checking below deck and in my haste to get out there and sail, I discovered that I had forgotten to flood the water ballast tank and lower the retractable centerboard. No harm. No foul. Lesson learned (make that launch checklist and follow it!).

There were two of us aboard. I can't imagine ever having 10 people on board and not having any ballast nor a centerboard in place. The very most I had on board the Mac were 5 passengers and myself which was more than I ever wanted to sail with again.

I never felt safe nor comfortable sailing the Macgregor. The wife would often say she felt more at ease on the Hobie. Considering my love for getting one hull out of the water and pitch-poleing now and then that's saying volumes about the "feel" of a Mac.

We've had the 250 for a while now. The wife never complains even in the worst of sailing conditions that she's afraid as she did while we sailed the MacGregor.

My deepest of sympathy goes out to the San Diego family who lost two loved ones this past Sunday. It's unfortunate they were put in harms way.

As most of us know well the sea, like an Ex-wife, can be very unforgiving. Experience, skill and common sense will likely see us through even the most tenable situations.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 08:04:03

From the Associated Press this morning.

Safety questions surround fatal San Diego voyage
March 29, 2011, 4:59 a.m. EDT
Associated Press
SAN DIEGO (AP) — The safety practices of a foundation that pairs volunteer boat captains with special-needs people who want to learn how to sail are under scrutiny after a sailboat on a sponsored trip capsized, killing a man and his son.

The 26-foot MacGregor boat overturned Sunday in San Diego Bay, killing the two men and sending eight others into the cold water. Some of the 10 people aboard were not wearing life jackets, said San Diego Harbor Police Chief John Bolduc, whose agency is leading the investigation.

Investigators were trying to determine the position of a retractable keel and whether passengers exceeded the boat's weight limit. The boat went down in calm seas near a buoy marking the way from a protected inlet to the channel of the bay.

Bolduc said the trip was sponsored by an Indiana-based nonprofit group that provides sailing trips to people with disabilities, but declined to name it.

Two government officials familiar with the investigation said it was the Heart of Sailing of Bloomington, which serves children and adults with developmental disorders like autism and Down syndrome. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

The voicemail box was full at the charity's headquarters Monday night. An email sent after-hours was not immediately returned.

The group's website says Heart of Sailing was founded in 2004 by George Saidah, a software entrepreneur and sailor who was motivated by his experience with a loved one with a cognitive disorder. The website boasts "a 100 percent satisfaction and safety record."

Its San Diego schedule called for seven voyages Sunday.

The water temperature at the time was in the high 50s, low enough for hypothermia to begin setting in before help arrived.

Chao Chen, 73, and his son, Jun Chen, 48, of San Diego, died Sunday night. They were among seven members of one family aboard, said San Diego Fire-Rescue spokesman Maurice Luque.

Another person, who was not identified, was in "rather serious condition" on Monday, Bolduc said.

Among those thrown into the water were two young adults with undisclosed special needs, and a 10-year-old girl and an 11-year-old boy who were wearing life jackets, authorities said.

___

Associated Press writers Robert Jablon and Gillian Flaccus contributed to this report from Los Angeles

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 10:55:25

If this was a rental sailboat, there may be more repercussions. In this case the skipper or individual who rented the boat may not be aware of the type of keel it had. We will just have to wait until the final investigation is in.
Steve A

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 11:07:09

In my opinion, the organization was negligent. They know what boats are being used and for how many people--it's published on their site. There is no #%!#@& way a 25' anything should be taking eight passengers sailing (making 10 with just a skipper and one able crew), especially when some are mentally and/or physically impaired.

Good intentions... Horrific execution.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/29/2011 11:08:11

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 15:34:53

Water Ballast was never a good idea and never will be. It weighs the same as the environment it is in - DUH!!!!???? I'll bet a bunch of WB's go on sale very soon.... Hunter's, Cat's and Mac's.... POS in my opinion. That been said, they are probably fairly reasonable on a lake or if the owner is prudent, but you have to remember the buyer - not a savy sailor.

This guy is an idiot.... Too many people repeatedly on a ***box. WTF???? He was raking in cake and running zillions of trips on a $2,500 boat? Hang him!

sten

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 16:54:26

According to the other thread, with a link to the organization's web site, the people doing this were volunteers, it was not a rental operation. But the guy was still an idiot for taking so many out on his boat at one time. I had 4 newbies out on our C-25 yesterday for out club's Learners at the Helm program and it made me a bit nervous, not to mention that 5 in the cockpit of a C-25 is a bit tight. I'm going to scale back to 3 next trip.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 21:33:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Water Ballast was never a good idea and never will be. It weighs the same as the environment it is in - DUH!!!!???? ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'll explain the physics to you some day, Sten.

To begin with, it's not in the environment. It's in the hull, and it could be wood, coal or gravel, except they're not as readily available or easy to load and unload as water. (Yes, even wood would work, except not as well.)

And the guy wasn't raking in anything but (he thought) a little good karma.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 04:24:37

Ouch Sten!

Our C250WB stood up really well in 7-8' high frequency waves on our trip to bimini.

Of course, I would be quite happy to move up to, say, a Island Packet 380 or a Calibre 35, rock solid.

But for a 25' sailboat, we're happy with out WB model's stability.

But if you put 10 people on our boat, where the heck are they going to plant their butts?

Paul

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 06:14:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Water Ballast was never a good idea and never will be. It weighs the same as the environment it is in - DUH!!!!???? ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'll explain the physics to you some day, Sten.

!

Water weighs 60 some odd pounds per cubic foot. Cast Iron (a common keel around here) weighs 440 lbs. per cubic foot. Lead - which is the finest keel material available, weighs over 700 lbs. per cubic foot. Now folks, which of the three do you want hanging off of the bottom of your boat?

Now let's look at some stats, shall we? PRE C250 boats weighed 4150 lbs. for the swingers with 1500 lbs. of that as keel. Fin keels weighed 4550 lbs. of which 1900 lbs. was big ass keel. Feel safer on the latter one already huh?

Then Frank and Co. saw that MacGreggor was selling a lot of really ***ty boats. More than he was. So Frank sat down with his designers and decided to see if they could, um compete in a Hunter/Mac world.

The result? A C250 weighs 2400 dry and 3600lbs. if you fill it with aqua... Same size vessel as the C25, ostensibly the same types of loads, etc... But just missing the weight... Again, which boat would you rather be on?

Sadly, Frank and Co. don't make em like they used to - which keeps the value for C25's very high. I sold my 1982 FK for $10K

!!! I miss that boat sometimes...

Now about that water ballast stuff. The owners manual for the C250 claims that it takes four minutes to fill but seven minutes to drain. Uh, Professor - why is that? And that's it? You can move 1200 lbs. of removable ballast in 4 minutes? Must be one hell of an intake? Now your tank is full and you should go forward and verify that the tank is full and do something with the vent thingy... BTW the Mac carrys the exact same lbs. of water ballast as the C250.

So many chances for error. Two more system items a C25 doesn't have. How many folks here have modified their C250's by putting big ass lead weights forward to compensate for the lack of ballast?

Find Ralph, I still say unsafe at any speed.

sten

Edited by - on

redviking
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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 06:21:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Ouch Sten!

Our C250WB stood up really well in 7-8' high frequency waves on our trip to bimini.

Of course, I would be quite happy to move up to, say, a Island Packet 380 or a Calibre 35, rock solid.

But for a 25' sailboat, we're happy with out WB model's stability.

But if you put 10 people on our boat, where the heck are they going to plant their butts?

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry Paul, I know it can be done - I just think it shouldn't be done by most. Luckily you did not see anything over 7-8' and I am sure you would agree. I saw 10-12' once on our C25 and it was pretty uncomfortable and a bit scary, I cant imagine taking a 1000 lbs. off of the bottom and doing the same thing...

sten

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 06:33:01

And about our zero and his mission. He basically found a way to vacation in various parts of the planet at favorable times without having to pay taxes on the monies received. Charging families $110 each for a 1 hour trip of which you schedule a whole bunch may not make you rich, but you can find ways to be in San Diego when it is warm and Canada in the summer, etc...

I don't think he is evil, and his program has merits. BUT, if you go to his website www.heartofsailing.org you will find a lot of pictures and information that sorta shows his complete lack of understanding regarding his feeble vessel nor even basic rules of engagement on the water. Not to mention the obvious conflicts with the Coasties regarding the whole Captain for hire bit on an UNINSPECTED vessel....

His tiller gives his maintenance program away, and his repeated overloading really makes you wonder.

Manslaughter sounds about right to me.... He can read my donated Chapmans in his cell...

sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 06:52:39

Sten, WB works for its intended purpose, which is not crossing oceans or taking 7-8' breaking seas. You should sail on a C-250 WB at least one time before you say it doesn't. See if you can broach it, and if so, if it comes back up... I wouldn't cross The Stream on one, but nobody ever accused me of being an adventurer. I consider it to be wrong for several reasons beyond its ballast.

The C-250 wing is lighter than the water ballast... although stiffer because of the depth of the ballast--but stiffer only to a degree. (The extra foot on the C-25 swing keel also counteracts its somewhat lighter weight compared to the fin, as does the big wing on the short C-25 WK.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/31/2011 06:55:15

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