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Whisker deployment

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RiverJames
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/28/2011 : 20:22:30

78' Cat with hank-on foresails. I recently purchased a 7-14 whisker and am having issues with deployment. I would like to use this with my 150% Genoa but find that with full deployment, the pole will not work forward of the running rigging, seems too long. Should I run the pole between the standing rigging? Seems dangerous and possibly destructive.

Also, it is not rigged with topping lift, foreguy or afterguy. Is this totally necessary?

What is the best way to extend the pole for deployment and then retrieve it? The buttons that lock the pole into place have no automatic release, so once locked into extension, the locking buttons are seven feet off the deck. I have to unhoook the whisker at the mast and bring the whole pole in manually before shortening it again.

Most everything I see online uses a roller furling setup which appears much easier. Alas, I am old-school (and short on boat-units).

Tried to deploy coming back into MB from Oceanside this past weekend and ended up with a lot of headsail in my face as my dad tried to keep us pointed wing-on wing.

Any advice?

Edited by - RiverJames on 03/28/2011 20:43:44

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 21:01:50

We are whisker-pole-ites. And Hank-on types, and cheap.

To fly our largest Genny (155%) we deploy the pole between teh forward most babystay and teh shroud.

The pole is extended about 3/4 of its full length to be class legal, but PHRF just lifted teh rules on pole length, so you can make it as long as you want, but you are ruining the shape of your genoa if you do.

We sailed one season without a topping lift on teh pole, then rigged a spare halyard to act as a topping lift. Makes a big difference.

The trick we use is to collapse teh pole from teh centre section. That means you can collapse it while still on deck, and use teh mast as a fixed object to push against if teh pole is belligerent.

We also have a forespar pole. It has been "customized" following the gale we were caught in during last year's night race, adn is now 2 feet lighter than the stock version.

Edited by - on

RiverJames
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2011 : 23:16:42

Thanks for the advice.

Am I to understand that your pole is three sections? Collapsing from the center section.... Mine has only two, and as I mentioned before, I have to disconnect the pole from the mast to bring the locks (buttons) in far enough to collapse. Is there some way to collapse the pole from the deck without disconnecting from the mast first? This seems a lot safer considering fourteen feet of aluminum across my boom and a huge foresail coming back and forth across the bow.

Edited by - RiverJames on 03/29/2011 08:21:42

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 04:31:27

The newer 7-17 whisker poles are three sections with twist locks. I have never seen one with pin locks. However, I think I remember Mr. Hopper (Pastmember) mention that he had one.

My experience won't help. I have roller furling, a 135% genoa, extra halyard for topping lift and a twist lock pole. I will say that the roller furling makes the whole job easier. I would also say that I would not feel comfortable with the pole between the shrouds.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 05:33:29

The "newer" poles actually have line control so you can adjust the length from the mast.
http://www.forespar.com/products/line-control-whisker-pole-aluminum.shtml

I have a twist lock and have about the same problems you do without a furler. I don't know of any way to make your job easier other than to fold the sail so that you begin lengthen the pole up to the bow just like if you had a furler.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 06:14:03

No Way would I pay $1,000 for a pole I'm going to either lose overboard or wrap around the forestay. Twistlock is fine for me.

Even without a twistlock though, if teh pole is 14 ft, why can't you luff a little, disconnect at teh mast, clip on to the baby stay on te wrong side of the boat, release the pin, collapse the pole, release the sail, remove teh pole from teh baby stay, then stow the pole. This way teh pole is still secure to teh boat, and you don't have to hang over the side to work it.

Do you have tethers? I have to admit that I spend a fair amount of time fiddling with the pole while stretched out over the lifelines, but we are pretty conscious about wearing a tether and clipping onto something up there. Also, if we are spending a lot of time fiddling with teh pole, conditions are usually pretty benign. Once the wind starts to pick up, the pole takes care of itself, and once its really humming, you don't need a pole at all - and probably shouldn't have one out unless you want it "customized" or lost overboard. Besides, if start to surf, you are better going gybe-gybe than dead downwind. The pole gets in teh way for that.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 07:09:08

There's no way to lose it if you have it mounted to an adjustable track on the mast.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 03/29/2011 07:09:47

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 07:50:09

Some folks like to store it upright on teh mast - I've never tried that. There is always the opportunity to lose stuff overboard. Don't ask how I know...

I still isn't paying no $1K for a glorified shower rod.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 08:29:21

We use a 7-17 Forespar twistlock pole. I have rigged a line from bridle to bridle which, when extended to the pole's correct length for the headsail, fits snugly alongside the pole.
Before we leave the dock the pole is extended to the correct length and then "parked" inside the stanchions on the port side.
When ready to deploy the foredeck crew clips the end fitting into the clew (or bowline loop), pushes it out alongside the forestay and snaps it into a ring on the mast - yells "set" and pushed the pole outwards to aid the genoa trimmer.
When dropping the pole he uses the line to trip from the sail and the genoa trimmer takes over control of the sail. The pole is unclipped from the mast and stowed inside the stanchions again - it is never collapsed until we return to the slip.
If we jibe the pole, it is unclipped from the mast, brought back across the cabin top until the clew clears the forestay and then pushed out all the way alongside the forestay on the other side and then clipped back on the mast and then swung out again to deploy the headsail.
I know that the C22 racers set their pole between the forward shroud and the main shroud but to do this on Canyon Lake with its shifty winds would lead to disaster.
We try never to sail DDW and as the wind shifts we rotate the sailplan (ease pole and trim main or vice versa).

Edited by - Derek Crawford on 03/29/2011 08:30:16

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 08:58:47

James,
Are you the new owner of Indiscipline? Previous owner being Jim Baumgart?

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 08:59:06

I would stand facing the mast, to put it out I would connect it to the clew, (sometimes between the shrouds), and then hand over hand shove it out until I could click the free end to the mast, I would reverse the routine to remove it. Trying to do it while wing on wing is a mistake, simply a deep run allows the headsail to be in the wind shadow of the main and lets you handle the sail easier. Then after the headsail is out on the pole, then you can head on down wind and gybe the main over to go wing on wing. I stored my pole on my lifelines, and yes it was a button pole, the best in my opinion.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 09:17:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Some folks like to store it upright on teh mast - I've never tried that. There is always the opportunity to lose stuff overboard. Don't ask how I know...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sliding it down a track seems a lot easier IMO as you only have to handle one side of the pole.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I still isn't paying no $1K for a glorified shower rod.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> To be fair, that's Forespar's direct price. It's $750 on other sites.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 03/29/2011 09:17:44

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 09:19:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 We use a 7-17 Forespar twistlock pole. I have rigged a line from bridle to bridle which, when extended to the pole's correct length for the headsail, fits snugly alongside the pole.
Before we leave the dock the pole is extended to the correct length and then "parked" inside the stanchions on the port side.
When ready to deploy the foredeck crew clips the end fitting into the clew (or bowline loop), pushes it out alongside the forestay and snaps it into a ring on the mast - yells "set" and pushed the pole outwards to aid the genoa trimmer.
When dropping the pole he uses the line to trip from the sail and the genoa trimmer takes over control of the sail. The pole is unclipped from the mast and stowed inside the stanchions again - it is never collapsed until we return to the slip.
If we jibe the pole, it is unclipped from the mast, brought back across the cabin top until the clew clears the forestay and then pushed out all the way alongside the forestay on the other side and then clipped back on the mast and then swung out again to deploy the headsail.
I know that the C22 racers set their pole between the forward shroud and the main shroud but to do this on Canyon Lake with its shifty winds would lead to disaster.
We try never to sail DDW and as the wind shifts we rotate the sailplan (ease pole and trim main or vice versa).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
For racing, that does seem like the best and easiest option for deploying. However, on a cruiser, you might not want to leave a large pole extended on deck all day.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 03/29/2011 09:20:34

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 10:24:04

I've never seen a C-22 racing with the pole set between the upper shroud and the forward lower shroud. To me that is very dangerous. In a blow, if the genoa trimmer loses control of the sheet, the pole could be slammed forward and damage the forward lower shroud, or bend the pole to uselessness. I say always set the pole in front of the shrouds. With the genoa on a C-25, I think the best pole is the Forespar ADJ 7-15 HD (or 7-17, but I'm pretty sure the 7-17 is no longer offered by Forespar). As stated above, it is a 3-section, twist-lock pole which collapses to about 8 ft. Be aware, however, that if you collapse it completely, the pistons on the end fittings will not open due to the interior pole-end occupying the space that the piston needs to retract into the fitting.
When we jybe with this pole, we often collapse the section closest to the mast, then using the pole, we bring the clew in and push the sail out on the other side, extend the pole again, lock it, and clip onto the mast padeye.
Your mast padeye should be at boom level to about 1 ft above the boom. You want the pole to be level or slightly higher at the mast.
With your 2-section pole and pin-lock set-up in the middle of the pole, collapsing the pole when you jybe is not practical. Two options are available. The first is to stand just forward of the mast on the boom side. At the signal to jybe, unclip the pole from the mast and push it back along the boom. When the clew clears the forestay by about a foot, push the pole forward with the clew on the new tack and clip the pole onto the mast. swing the pole out to help bring the genoa around. Let the trimmer take over to set the sail and then help push the main across if needed there. The second option is what I call the broomstick method; it works on the C-22 but is harder on the C-25 with the longer and heavier pole. This method calls for unclipping the pole from the mast at the jybe command and going straight up in front of the mast with the pole. Standing in front of the mast facing forward, you use the pole, still attached to the genoa, like a broom to "sweep" the sail across the foredeck and out onto the new tack. Then reattach the pole to the mast. It takes some practice and you have to learn to rotate the pole slightly as you push it out.
The first option will be safer. In any event, you should practice jybing with the working jib first and get comfortable with the procedures before moving up to the genoa.

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/29/2011 10:28:11

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 10:34:57

Also, I recommend taking a short piece of 5/16" line, about 12-14" long, and tie it onto the clew forming a loop about 4-6" long. Attach your whisker pole to that loop. It makes jybing easier and does not interfere with the sheets.

Edited by - on

RiverJames
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 11:50:46

These are all great suggestions. Thanks, everyone.

I'm still going to have an issue with placement of the pole relative to the shroud and babystay. With the Genoa, simply too much sail (and therefore whisker) to deploy forward of the the shrouds. I know it seems dangerous to deploy between the shrouds, but I don't see any other solution. Has anyone had an actual problem with this or is it theoretical?

I actually am the new owner of Indiscipline, Jim Baumgart's old boat.

Edited by - on

Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 12:10:16

Potentially very dangerous, or at least destructive. Bug me next time at dock and I'll see if can offer suggestion. I'll be down there in a few hrs.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RiverJames
 These are all great suggestions. Thanks, everyone.

I'm still going to have an issue with placement of the pole relative to the shroud and babystay. With the Genoa, simply too much sail (and therefore whisker) to deploy forward of the the shrouds. I know it seems dangerous to deploy between the shrouds, but I don't see any other solution. Has anyone had an actual problem with this or is it theoretical?

I actually am the new owner of Indiscipline, Jim Baumgart's old boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 13:30:20

When I destroyed my pole last year it was by deploying it forward of teh babystay and having the wind pick up while sailing single handed.

The story is here: http://littleboatiris.blogspot.com/2010/08/dnf.html

What I should have done is to gybe the main over, shadowing the foresail, then going forward to take down teh pole in teh windshadow of the main. Out alone at night in 30 knots is a little unnerving though, and I am the first to admit I was a little edgy and not thinkin gthings through as I ought to have been. Otherwise I woulda never done the sail change that got me into the whole mess to begin with - the front line was almost in sight when I changed up. Reading back over that blog entry now, I think most of my reactions that night were dead wrong, and I learned a helluva lot. For instance, when I wrote that I was still thinking that turning upwind was the best way to pull off a sail change. I probably could have done a change downwind, but alone, and in big wind it woulda been tricky.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 15:23:13

DavidP - I raced on a C22 in the 2002 Nationals on Clear Lake. The skipper was a C22 Natl.Champion and we set the pole between the shrouds - as did many others in the gold fleet (it scared me ...)
I also have a 3/16" short line sewn into a circle in the clew of the genoa - it does make clipping on the pole easier.

RiverJames - are you sure that your pole extends far enough? On TSU with a 150% headsail the pole is 15'9" long.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 15:41:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RiverJames
 These are all great suggestions. Thanks, everyone.

I'm still going to have an issue with placement of the pole relative to the shroud and babystay. With the Genoa, simply too much sail (and therefore whisker) to deploy forward of the the shrouds. I know it seems dangerous to deploy between the shrouds, but I don't see any other solution. Has anyone had an actual problem with this or is it theoretical?

I actually am the new owner of Indiscipline, Jim Baumgart's old boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
IMHO, the best overall way to do it is the way Derek does it with a 7-17 pole, but I set my whisker pole between the stays for 23 years and never had a problem. The key is to not use the pole at all in very strong winds. The reason why you can do that is that, when the wind is blowing so hard that setting the pole between the stays becomes risky, you really don't need a pole to hold out the jib. The wind itself will keep it from collapsing frequently. If you set the pole between the stays, I believe you increase the effective sail area exposed to the wind and can sail a course that is a little deeper downwind, while still maintaining good speed.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/29/2011 15:50:02

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
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Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 18:54:06

Yup - What Steve Said.

Edited by - on

Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2011 : 22:11:56

He will be sailing in waves. In light winds when running in swell the apparent wind changes even more dramatically than in stronger winds. I think it's bad practice to have the pole between the shrouds in any wind but especially in the conditions he'll be sailing in.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
IMHO, the best overall way to do it is the way Derek does it with a 7-17 pole, but I set my whisker pole between the stays for 23 years and never had a problem. The key is to not use the pole at all in very strong winds. The reason why you can do that is that, when the wind is blowing so hard that setting the pole between the stays becomes risky, you really don't need a pole to hold out the jib. The wind itself will keep it from collapsing frequently. If you set the pole between the stays, I believe you increase the effective sail area exposed to the wind and can sail a course that is a little deeper downwind, while still maintaining good speed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

two port feet
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 01:27:50

The first time I ran my brand new three section twist lock big $$ whisker pole. I placed it in front of the stays, big mistake. Trying to pull the sheet to get the 150 out enough to fill and pole rubbed against lower front stay. It doesn’t take much pressure on the stay to bend your whisker just like it had a hinge. So after repairs and loosing 18 inches of my new whisker pole. I now run the pole between the stays and have had no further problems. Lesson lured the hard way. Find your own comfort zone.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 06:30:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ryan L
 He will be sailing in waves. In light winds when running in swell the apparent wind changes even more dramatically than in stronger winds. I think it's bad practice to have the pole between the shrouds in any wind but especially in the conditions he'll be sailing in.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
IMHO, the best overall way to do it is the way Derek does it with a 7-17 pole, but I set my whisker pole between the stays for 23 years and never had a problem. The key is to not use the pole at all in very strong winds. The reason why you can do that is that, when the wind is blowing so hard that setting the pole between the stays becomes risky, you really don't need a pole to hold out the jib. The wind itself will keep it from collapsing frequently. If you set the pole between the stays, I believe you increase the effective sail area exposed to the wind and can sail a course that is a little deeper downwind, while still maintaining good speed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
As a practical matter, we have to figure out how to use the equipment that we have, not the equipment we wish we had. In his original post, RJ said he has a 7-14 pole, and it won't work when set forward of the stays.

The only way to make that kind of pole work is by setting it between the stays. He expressed concern that it might be risky, and I felt the same way before I tried it, but, after trying it, I learned that, if you set the pole between the stays in light air, the likelihood of damaging the pole is slight. If you set it between the stays in strong winds, the likelihood of bending the pole is much greater. With experience, you'll learn how much wind is safe, and how much is too much.

On my C25, I never used either a topping lift or downhaul on my whisker pole, simply because I never felt it necessary in the light-to-moderate winds in which I used the pole.

If you sail in swells, the apparent wind is generally more shifty, and you have to react quickly to it with your helmsmanship, whether the pole is set forward of the stays or between them.

When sailing "wung out," it's much more important that you steer your boat accurately. You don't have much room to stray from your course before you are on the verge of gybing, so you can't lose focus.

On my present boat, a C&C 35, I have a big-a$$ (and expensive) 13X24 whisker pole, and it is long enough and sturdy enough to set forward of the stays, and that's how I use it. I still don't use a topping lift or downhaul, because I have only used it so far when singlehanding, and I still only use it in moderate winds, and never needed them. I have raced a friend's boat downwind in 25 kts, without downhaul or topping lift, so, if they become necessary in higher winds, I can't say. I probably wouldn't use a pole in much more wind (unless I tried it carefully and liked it, or unless I wanted to win the race really bad

).

The bottom line is that you have to try different approaches in moderate or lighter winds, and figure out how the pole that you have works.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/30/2011 06:42:09

Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 08:50:04

Bending the pole is just one of a host of things that can end up badly with the pole between the shrouds. I'm sure you have had many years of experience without any problems, just as many people store propane in their cabins, don't run their blowers before starting gas engines, have the old style through hulls, etc but that doesn't make it a good idea. I agree with you that in dead flat seas and very light steady winds it's not such a big deal but in any swells, shifty winds, pressure over a few knots, etc I still contend that shrouding your pole (how's that for a phrase!) is a bad, even dangerous, idea. I'm not saying you're "wrong" or that there is a wrong way to deploy the pole. I guess it just comes down to willingness to assume the risk vs. potential reward for that risk. A quarter knot of speed on a very light wind flat water day doesn't seem worth the risks of damage (or worse) in my opinion. Besides, we have Catalina 25s, not exactly light wind machines, there's a good reason there are so many threads about outboard motor position... ;)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ryan L
 He will be sailing in waves. In light winds when running in swell the apparent wind changes even more dramatically than in stronger winds. I think it's bad practice to have the pole between the shrouds in any wind but especially in the conditions he'll be sailing in.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
IMHO, the best overall way to do it is the way Derek does it with a 7-17 pole, but I set my whisker pole between the stays for 23 years and never had a problem. The key is to not use the pole at all in very strong winds. The reason why you can do that is that, when the wind is blowing so hard that setting the pole between the stays becomes risky, you really don't need a pole to hold out the jib. The wind itself will keep it from collapsing frequently. If you set the pole between the stays, I believe you increase the effective sail area exposed to the wind and can sail a course that is a little deeper downwind, while still maintaining good speed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
As a practical matter, we have to figure out how to use the equipment that we have, not the equipment we wish we had. In his original post, RJ said he has a 7-14 pole, and it won't work when set forward of the stays.

The only way to make that kind of pole work is by setting it between the stays. He expressed concern that it might be risky, and I felt the same way before I tried it, but, after trying it, I learned that, if you set the pole between the stays in light air, the likelihood of damaging the pole is slight. If you set it between the stays in strong winds, the likelihood of bending the pole is much greater. With experience, you'll learn how much wind is safe, and how much is too much.

On my C25, I never used either a topping lift or downhaul on my whisker pole, simply because I never felt it necessary in the light-to-moderate winds in which I used the pole.

If you sail in swells, the apparent wind is generally more shifty, and you have to react quickly to it with your helmsmanship, whether the pole is set forward of the stays or between them.

When sailing "wung out," it's much more important that you steer your boat accurately. You don't have much room to stray from your course before you are on the verge of gybing, so you can't lose focus.

On my present boat, a C&C 35, I have a big-a$$ (and expensive) 13X24 whisker pole, and it is long enough and sturdy enough to set forward of the stays, and that's how I use it. I still don't use a topping lift or downhaul, because I have only used it so far when singlehanding, and I still only use it in moderate winds, and never needed them. I have raced a friend's boat downwind in 25 kts, without downhaul or topping lift, so, if they become necessary in higher winds, I can't say. I probably wouldn't use a pole in much more wind (unless I tried it carefully and liked it, or unless I wanted to win the race really bad

).

The bottom line is that you have to try different approaches in moderate or lighter winds, and figure out how the pole that you have works.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 11:06:37

Can someone tell me how having your pole between the shrouds is dangerous?? I must be missing somethign here, but the only time I have been caught in a dangerous situation with the pole was when it ended up wrapped around the forestay.

Having it between teh shrouds, the furthest forward te pole can go is about a foot. Then it hts a shroud, wraps around it, and you say "Oh Crap, I better fix that." If there is a shroud on teh boat I can afford to lose, it is a baby stay.

If teh sheet slips and teh pole is forward of teh shrouds, the entire foredeck is getting wiped out. Now you are looking at damaged sails, injured foredeck crew, a foredeck swept clean, and a hard impact on the forestay. If there is one stay on teh boat I can't afford to lose, it is the forestay.

I am either ignorant or confused. Possibly both. My only experience flying the pole forward of teh baby stays was bad.

Edited by - on

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.