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My spreaders are drooping. Help

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mikesuej
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Initially Posted - 04/10/2011 : 13:13:02

A sailor across the docks noticed my spreaders are drooping and it appears they are. My owners manual shows that there is supposed to be some stainless steel ceasing wire at the spreader tips.

I am assuming they are supposed to be more or less horizontal. Has anyone encountered this and how is the problem best solved.

I thought I would push them up or pull them with messengar line attached to shroud and once they are up, go up on the top climber and attach new ceasing wire.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

Michael T. Janocik
Seatitude

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superbob
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Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 14:16:28

The spreaders are attached to a piece of metal which is firmly attached to the mast. The channel of each spread fits snugly the piece of metal and secured onto it with a bolt and a pin. All things being equal there should not be a drooping issue with each spreader. Post your e-mail address and I'll send you a photo of the mast mount.

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mikesuej
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Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 14:40:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by superbob
 The spreaders are attached to a piece of metal which is firmly attached to the mast. The channel of each spread fits snugly the piece of metal and secured onto it with a bolt and a pin. All things being equal there should not be a drooping issue with each spreader. Post your e-mail address and I'll send you a photo of the mast mount.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thank you, Superbob. I have the diagram in the manual of the spreader assembly and it shows some siezing wire that would keep the spreaders from creeping downward. My rig tension is not too tight. . . please send photo to mikesuej@bellsouth.net And thank you very much!

Edited by - on

mikesuej
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Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 15:01:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by superbob
 The spreaders are attached to a piece of metal which is firmly attached to the mast. The channel of each spread fits snugly the piece of metal and secured onto it with a bolt and a pin. All things being equal there should not be a drooping issue with each spreader. Post your e-mail address and I'll send you a photo of the mast mount.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here's a photo - not very good from Blackberry, but you can see the spreaders drooping a bit http://seatitude.intuitwebsites.com/drooping_spreader.jpg

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 15:37:19

It's very important that the spreaders bisect the angle between the top half of the shroud and the bottom half. If you do the trigonometry, this means that the spreaders should angle slightly upward , not level. (I have done the trigonometry and will try to dig it up.) Simple mechanics says that when this proper angle is rigged, the spreaders will be in pure compression, with no upward or downward torque. This is very important for surviving a heavy blow that might otherwise collapse your rig.

The spreader bracket reflects this in its construction - the tabs do angle up slightly.

Ideally there would be no play in the spreaders. But they are made out of aluminum and may be prone to (at least) two types of wear due to the metal's softness. First, the hole that the clevis pin goes through might enlarge over time. Second, the foil-shaped extrusion can become fatter when torqued against the spreader bracket.

The above comments are based on my own personal experience, not from any Catalina manual (though I think the Cat manual does mention spreaders angled upward).

When I bought my C250 I noticed that the starboard spreader was lower than the port one. (I think I posted a thread on this a year ago.) I tried nudging it up with a long pole, but it was seized too tightly.

[DISCLAIMER: If you try what I am about to say, you do so at your own risk.] To make the adjustment I attached the main and jib halyards together and looped them under the spreader, with a messenger line to bring them down and also to keep the halyards near the end of the spreader by looping it around the shroud. I loosened the shroud (to allow it to conform better to the seizing wire), put the halyards under tension using the starboard winch, and banged the spreader up with a long pole. Using this trick, I was able to get the spreader up.

At the end of the season I dropped the mast and noticed two things. My starboard seizing wire was now loose. I also measured the angle of the spreaders, and noticed that the port one was actually a bit too high. I took the starboard one off the bracket, and that's when I noticed the above-mentioned "play" at the bracket. I used vice grips to gently and gradually compress the fattened spreader tip a bit. That helped but did not completely eliminate the play. I haven't actually confirmed that the hole is enlarged - that's on the list when I do a closer inspection.

Before raising my mast I am going to adjust the port one down a bit and the starboard one up to match. I will re-seize the tips with monel seizing wire and replace the rubber spreader tips (I posted a thread on this too). I just finished my bottom job today, so this and a few other masthead things are next on my list.

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/10/2011 16:26:50

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 19:00:25

Take a long pole and just push them up. We've done this. The wire at the spreader tip is good to have but it does not lock the spreader onto the shroud.

Edited by - on

mikesuej
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Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 09:02:14

What about a stainless steel cable clamp like this http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=286 to put under the spreader to keep it from droppping. . . . obviously use some lanocote on it to keep spreader from corroding.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 11:37:10

Once your spreader is in compression, meaning your rig is tight and the angle's right, you shouldn't need to have anything other than the seizing wire in place. Have you tuned your rig yet? I've had to use Randy's method of pushing one of my spreaders up till it bisected the angles as recommended by Rick. It really helps to have a helper at some distance from the bow or stern to tell you when you've hit the mark. Our marina is ideal for this as the road is up about 15' above the docks. I have Rita or another dockmate watch while doing any adjusting. Our marina has a 20' boathook that's perfect for the adjustment.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 11:38:02

You should not need a clamp and that may damage your sail as it rubs against the shroud. If you want something mechanical use these:

[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=11151&partNumber=111864&langId=-1"]Jib Protector[/url]

Edited by - on

mikesuej
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Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 12:02:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 Once your spreader is in compression, meaning your rig is tight and the angle's right, you shouldn't need to have anything other than the seizing wire in place. Have you tuned your rig yet? I've had to use Randy's method of pushing one of my spreaders up till it bisected the angles as recommended by Rick. It really helps to have a helper at some distance from the bow or stern to tell you when you've hit the mark. Our marina is ideal for this as the road is up about 15' above the docks. I have Rita or another dockmate watch while doing any adjusting. Our marina has a 20' boathook that's perfect for the adjustment.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That makes some sense. I guess since I'm going aloft on my mast climber to put the chafing wheels on and if I can get the angle right, it seems that the stainless steel wire clamps would be easy enough to put on and would not induce any corrosion issues. . . When you did yours were you able to gently winch the spreader up or did you have to push it up with a stick as well. I'm in Louisville and a 20 foot boat hook is not to be had. Maybe a couple lengths of PVC coupled together (for the car ride out)?

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 12:13:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mikesuej
 ...I'm in Louisville and a 20 foot boat hook is not to be had. Maybe a couple lengths of PVC coupled together (for the car ride out)?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You don't need the hook part - just the pole. I got a telescoping aluminum extension pole that was plenty long at Home Depot - I did not even extend it all the way. Later I found a screw-on boat hook on sale somewhere, so if I need a long hook I have it.

However, as I mentioned above, the pole alone wasn't enough for me. I needed the halyards pulling up on the spreader at the same time I banged on the spreader with the pole. Do this at your own risk - if done improperly you could damage the spreader.

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/11/2011 12:14:23

britinusa
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Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 14:23:08

I believe the primary function of the seizing wire that passes through the holes in the tip of the spreaders is to prevent the shround coming out of the groove in the end of the spreader when the mast is lowered and the tension removed from the shrounds. When raising the mast, the shrouds stay in the groove.

I got a 10mile long stainless steel wire on a drum (ok, not 10miles, but should last a number of boat years) from harbor freight. We also have canvas covers that fit over the ends of the spreads encompassing the shrouds to prevent chafing on the main and jib.

Paul

Edited by - on

mikesuej
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Response Posted - 04/12/2011 : 06:38:34

Thanks all for your great advice! This is a great forum with good people. Here's my plan:

1. Home depot for a $25 20 foot extension pole
1a. Post first mate with binocs accross the docs with FRS radio
2. Tie both jib and main halyards together with messenger line around shroud.
3. Loosen port shroud a bit
4. Carefully winch up the line to apply upward pull on starboard spreader. Push up the spreader with padded pole.
5. Once I get word that it looks good from first mate, retrieve halyards
6. Tighten shroud
7. Repeat for starboard side.
8. Tune rig according to manual
9. Go aloft and secure seizing wire and make any minor adjustments and install chaffe wheels above both spreaders.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/20/2011 : 11:29:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mikesuej
 What about a stainless steel cable clamp like this http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=286 to put under the spreader to keep it from droppping. . . . obviously use some lanocote on it to keep spreader from corroding.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of putting SS clamps over and under the spreader tips to keep them at the proper height:

<center>

</center>

It seems this could prevent unwanted sliding of the shrouds through the seizing wire, especially during mast raising and lowering. These would be then covered by spreader boots to prevent chafing against the genoa (I only have 110 anyway, so not an issue) or backwinded main.

Can anyone think of a reason NOT to do this?

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/20/2011 : 18:32:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 Can anyone think of a reason NOT to do this?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'd be concerned with crimping or nicking the shroud thus weakening it. Also, I believe there needs to be movement of the shoud on the spreader tip to allow it to find its own angle. Say you did use a clamp such as this, you'd have to apply them with the mast up and the shroud at the proper tension.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/20/2011 : 20:49:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 Can anyone think of a reason NOT to do this?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'd be concerned with crimping or nicking the shroud thus weakening it. Also, I believe there needs to be movement of the shoud on the spreader tip to allow it to find its own angle. Say you did use a clamp such as this, you'd have to apply them with the mast up and the shroud at the proper tension.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't agree with allowing the spreaders to find their own angle. My spreaders tend to find slightly different angles from each other and need to be guided to achieve the same angles on port and starboard - which is why the clamps might help.

I'm not sure why the mast needs to be up first - you can easily calculate the proper angle from the length of the mast and beam of the chainplates. And the shrouds do not stretch appreciably under tension, so their length is not going to change by any more than the margin of error in the measurements.

I'm concerned about crimping also, but would hope that would not happen if the clamp is properly sized and not over-tightened. But this concern is the most significant one that might impact my willingness to use them.

I'm going to see how well the seizing wire "grips" the shrouds to lock in the spreader angle, and then decide whether to add the clamps.

Edited by - on

mikesuej
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Response Posted - 04/21/2011 : 05:39:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 Can anyone think of a reason NOT to do this?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'd be concerned with crimping or nicking the shroud thus weakening it. Also, I believe there needs to be movement of the shoud on the spreader tip to allow it to find its own angle. Say you did use a clamp such as this, you'd have to apply them with the mast up and the shroud at the proper tension.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think the point of a cable clamp is to distribute the load evenly around the cable, so "nicking" the shroud seems unlikely - especially since you're just putting the clamp on tight enought to hold up the shroud - not a lot of clamping pressure is needed. Also, the shrouds should not "find their way." They should BISECT the angle between the upper and lower shroud. I'd be much more concerned about rig failure with spreaders "finding their way" than a carefully and rightly sized cable clamp.

Also, one could calculate the required angle as noted by RD, but a 69 cent protractor from Walmart will do the job. Just measure angle of shroud above the spreader and below and make sure they are equal. That will keep the spreader in, theoretically, 100% compression.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/21/2011 : 05:59:47

Some good info here...

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=H__QvckTZ4sC&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=rigger+shroud+spreader+angle+seizing&source=bl&ots=XKLJgGTFtW&sig=AatTPQsvZXVnU3LoC7Ond84quc8&hl=en&ei=7CSwTd-_GY6CtgeIhrjnCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false"]This Old Boat by Don Casey[/url]

Before resorting to those stainless steel cable clamps, in addition to traditional seizing wire, you might try using something like heavy duty cable ties cinched tight and/or some rigging tape above and below the tip. Might work.

Edited by - on

mikesuej
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Response Posted - 04/21/2011 : 06:18:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Some good info here...

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=H__QvckTZ4sC&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=rigger+shroud+spreader+angle+seizing&source=bl&ots=XKLJgGTFtW&sig=AatTPQsvZXVnU3LoC7Ond84quc8&hl=en&ei=7CSwTd-_GY6CtgeIhrjnCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false"]This Old Boat by Don Casey[/url]

Before resorting to those stainless steel cable clamps, in addition to traditional seizing wire, you might try using something like heavy duty cable ties cinched tight and/or some rigging tape above and below the tip. Might work.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't like the idea of rigging tape - SS stranded wire needs oxygen or it will corrode. Covering the shroud with rigging tape would trap condensation and keep oxygen and you might get a serious rust or pitting problem and never know about it.

A small SS cable clamp, in effect, is, a heavy duty cable tie. Maybe you're talking about those big plastic zip ties? I don't think they'd last long in the sun.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 04/21/2011 : 06:20:14

I think these might do the job, have not measured the width of the spreaders on our 2005 C250.

[url="http://www.westmarine.com/1/1/8322-spreader-boots-large-fits-tips-3-1-4-x-1-shrouds.html"]

[/url]

Paul

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/21/2011 : 08:44:47

That is an interesting comment about the rigging tape being a problem causing rust or pitting.

From my own experience, I've seen a few cases where adhesive tapes caused problems. One was on a ham radio tower where black tape caused corrosion of he guy wires (galvanized). Another where sail mending tape caused the dacron to simply rot wherever the adhesive of the tape touched the sail.

Rigging tape however does not have an adhesive, it is put on and then an adhesive tape is applied over it to hold it in place.

I'm not saying that the claim isn't true... but white adhesive tape is not rigging tape though it is sometimes used wrongly for it and if the problems were associated with white adhesive tape, then the blame should not be placed on rigging tape.

What I'm really saying is, I'd be interested in hearing from a professional rigger that the blame should be on rigging tape or white adhesive tape.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/21/2011 : 09:14:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mikesuej
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Some good info here...

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=H__QvckTZ4sC&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=rigger+shroud+spreader+angle+seizing&source=bl&ots=XKLJgGTFtW&sig=AatTPQsvZXVnU3LoC7Ond84quc8&hl=en&ei=7CSwTd-_GY6CtgeIhrjnCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false"]This Old Boat by Don Casey[/url]

Before resorting to those stainless steel cable clamps, in addition to traditional seizing wire, you might try using something like heavy duty cable ties cinched tight and/or some rigging tape above and below the tip. Might work.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A small SS cable clamp, in effect, is, a heavy duty cable tie. Maybe you're talking about those big plastic zip ties? I don't think they'd last long in the sun.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Big plastic zip ties are a nickname of sorts. This is a cable tie.

The difference between a cable tie and a stainless steel clamp is the I could tightened the cable tie pretty tight without harming the shroud or fear overtightening. I could probably overtighten the SS cable clamp to the point of damage. As to sun exposure of the plastic cable tie, Rhythm Doctor stated his SS clamps would be covered by the spreader boot and I assumed a cable tie could be too.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/21/2011 : 09:57:46

Yes, in my case the boot would cover the cable tie. I like the idea of a cable tie because I can tighten it as tight as I want without damaging the cable. I think they even make tensioning tools for the plastic ties to get it as tight as possible.

AFAIK, the corrosion problem with rigging tape is due to moisture entrapment. When you wrap it around the cable it has a high aspect ratio (the width of the tape is much more than the diameter of the cable that it's wrapped around), and that high aspect ratio is an impediment to drying under the cable (restricts water going out and, more importantly, air coming in). The cable tie is narrow enough that it would not trap water or impede the flow of air.

Part of the reason for this is that I DO NOT want to go aloft to adjust the spreaders (or anything else). I really want to get the spreader height locked in prior to raising the mast. That's why I want to do the calculations first and seize the spreaders in place while I am at deck level. I'll post my trigonometric calculations as soon as I get time to sketch them out. The results surprised me a bit (lower angle than I expected), so I'd like to get your feedback.

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/21/2011 10:00:31

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/21/2011 : 12:10:06

I really do not think any mechanical device is needed. If the spreader is not level just nudge it with a pole.

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mikesuej
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Response Posted - 04/21/2011 : 13:50:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 Yes, in my case the boot would cover the cable tie. I like the idea of a cable tie because I can tighten it as tight as I want without damaging the cable. I think they even make tensioning tools for the plastic ties to get it as tight as possible.

AFAIK, the corrosion problem with rigging tape is due to moisture entrapment. When you wrap it around the cable it has a high aspect ratio (the width of the tape is much more than the diameter of the cable that it's wrapped around), and that high aspect ratio is an impediment to drying under the cable (restricts water going out and, more importantly, air coming in). The cable tie is narrow enough that it would not trap water or impede the flow of air.

Part of the reason for this is that I DO NOT want to go aloft to adjust the spreaders (or anything else). I really want to get the spreader height locked in prior to raising the mast. That's why I want to do the calculations first and seize the spreaders in place while I am at deck level. I'll post my trigonometric calculations as soon as I get time to sketch them out. The results surprised me a bit (lower angle than I expected), so I'd like to get your feedback.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree with you - cease the damned things! I'm going aloft - got a new ATN Mast Climber and a good harness, plus the spreaders aren't too terribly high. I hate the idea of hauling out, dropping mast, etc.etc. etc.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/21/2011 : 15:36:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 I really do not think any mechanical device is needed. If the spreader is not level just nudge it with a pole.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agree.

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