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Flares and Strobes?

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redeye
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Initially Posted - 04/15/2011 : 07:01:11

So.. are we stocking Flares and Strobes nowadays? What say ye?

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 07:34:05

Are they an endangered species? I haven't had a flare gun in 20 years because shipping to the Plains is such a pain.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 07:48:47

Well.. my current set of flares are going out of date and I was wondering with all the communications devices and the additional recommendation of a strobe, are we still required to have flares? If we have strobes onboard?

So are we supposto have both nowadays?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 08:32:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 ...are we still required to have flares? If we have strobes onboard?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup. You need at least three flares that are approved for day, and three for night (or three day-night). A strobe is only considered adequate at night, and is more for locating than for getting attention. I keep a combo strobe/flashlight tied to my PFD.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/15/2011 08:34:23

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 10:07:55

Flashlight for night, orange flag for day.

I don't believe you are required to carry pyrotechnic signaling devices.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 10:28:12

I guess that's right, but you have to have three daytime devices and three night devices, whatever they are. Three day-night flares cover both requirements. A "flashlight" does not count--it must be a distress light that automatically flashes SOS.

I prefer to have handheld day/night flares, aerials, a flag, and a strobe (in addition to a handheld VHF in my floating ditch bag). I want to make sure somebody on the veranda in Watch Hill sees my signal out on Block Island Sound. Also, I've been boarded by the USCG three times in the last three years, so I'm inclined to let them find more than is required.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/15/2011 10:37:20

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 10:34:22

I guess the day flares give off a lot of smoke for a signal. I never thought to check for day/night approval. The only time I've ever needed to use one, it was on the night of the 4th of July. Nobody noticed...

I doubt that the next time I need one, that it would be on the same date!

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 10:37:17

<>

Oh.. so you just get the flares and be done with it. I was kinda getting confused when I read the regs.

Thank You..

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 10:39:54

Ray, see my edited post above... If you've already had occasion to use a distress signal, I would think you'd be even more inclined to have an ample stock, and a variety. No?

BTW, there's nothing wrong with having some expired flares on board, as long as you don't need them to meet the requirements. The more, the better.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/15/2011 10:41:17

Ryan L
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 10:40:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 So.. are we stocking Flares and Strobes nowadays? What say ye?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There's a good discussion of the pros/cons and requirements for various signal devices at http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/reviewpages/boatusf/project/info2f.htm

Personally, we carry all the above (including signal mirror) in waterproof containers spread between our bail-out-bag and cockpit locker. Our pyro are mostly non-SOLAS but that will change as budget permits. We also added SOLAS reflective tape to mast, PFDs, etc. I think all that may be too much for just local inland or nearby coastal day cruising but for night sailing, sailing regularly out of sight of land, sailing in major shipping lanes, etc I think it's worth the added expense. Assuming you train in their correct use...

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 10:49:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I guess that's right, but you have to have three daytime devices and three night devices, whatever they are.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you are using pyrotechnics for daytime, then yes, you must carry a minimum of three, but if you are using non-pyrotechnics, I believe one flag will suffice. I carry a handful of expired handheld flares as well.

Edited by - dlucier on 04/15/2011 10:54:45

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 11:09:07

<< have an ample stock, and a variety. No? >>

Well.. it's like this.. depends on where you are sailing. On Lake Lanier I'd rather not have them on board if I don't need them for the regs.. It gets kinda hot in this boat in the middle of august. And the drunks are likely to want to fire them up after the second bottle of tequila... The Georgia "Hey Watch This" factor.. ( Not that any of MY Friends would do that )

Anywhere offshore or just about anywhere else I'd keep um.. But on Lanier we got so many people on the water you can flag somebody down with your hands...

I'm also tired of paying for something that goes "Out of Date" in 3 years. I ain't made of money.... and I've got to keep some cash for the batteries for the strobes... ( that seem to fail every three years, although they are not out of date )

Go Figure...

But... I wanna know what the regs are.. and it sounds like get three and go on to something else, or you are gonna have the same long conversation with a Ranger/DNR/Sherrif/Coasty .. ( and he may not be in a good mood ).

Thanks...

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 11:23:12

I'm happy to report that the only use I've had for my outdated flares is to encourage the woodchucks (aka ground hogs, whistle pigs) who eat my broccoli, kale, and cauliflower to move their burrow to other woods away from my garden.

Edited by - JohnP on 04/15/2011 11:24:17

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 11:33:07

When buying flares, check the dates or you may be buying the equivalent of expired milk.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 13:47:41

Every so often I find a thread like this and will groan outloud and my wife will ask, "What are the peeps up to now?" "Uh sweetie, there's a thread about whether or not to carry flares," I reply. The laughter she emitted was so loud our neighbor asked what was so funny.

Actually, IT IS NOT FUNNY! It is sad to think that some of the very basic safety items could be considered optional. If you can't play by the rules, don't come out here and play. It should be a matter of pride for every skipper to not only have current safety devices, but to instruct passengers on their operation or at a bare minimum, the existance of such devices.

Let's just imagine a possible scenario shall we, and see what proper emergency signaling equipment could save lives in an emergency.

Bob and Dawna and their two kids are daysailing. Winds pipe up and when Bob goes forward to tuck in a reef, Dawna loses concentration on the helm and the boat heels sharply sending Bob into the water. (Bob - get it?

) Bob had his PFD on and is OK, but Dawna swings the helm sharply so as to return to Bob quickly and nearly broaches. Twack! The standing rigging just went and all Bob and Dawna can do is watch the mast fall into the water. This stops the boat. Bob is now getting tired and cold. He is far away and unable to swim. Dawna can't get the engine started for some reason. Dawna tries the radio but can't get anyone on 16 - 'cuz the mast is down. Bob has a cell phone, but it is in his pants and ruined. Hers is dead and besides cell coverage is spotty anyway. Suddenly Dawna remembers the flares and the flare gun. She lights a smoke flare, a day flare and fires off two pistol type - or rocket flares - one right after another. Dawna sees a boat alter course and head in her direction. She fires off another flare to confirm the emergency and lights another day flare and is waving it wildly. The responding vessel calls the Coasties and throttles up. Bob will live to sail another day.

Bottom line - YOU are required to carry flares and have been since 1981. But if you want to flout the rules, it's your life. BUT, I'll ultimately pay higher insurance premiums, etc...

But, hey some people wouldn't dream of driving a car on bad tires with poor brakes - but at least you can pull over, OR, if you get into an accident, someone will call 911 and you won't drown.

And strobes should be mandatory equipment for all life rings and Inflatable PFD's. Here's a nice way to help put it into perspective. Toss a coconut overboard while sailing and come back to it and try to find it let alone pick it up. Sobering... I put a small rocket flare in each of my inflatables such that there is one more way to attract attention.

BTW - the most important reason to have all of this stuff is it becomes insurance. Insurance that you will never need them and I will never read about you in the papers.

Flare away!

sten

Edited by - on

Ryan L
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 14:12:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

But... I wanna know what the regs are.. and it sounds like get three and go on to something else, or you are gonna have the same long conversation with a Ranger/DNR/Sherrif/Coasty .. ( and he may not be in a good mood ).

Thanks...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The regs are clearly spelled out in the link I posted earlier. If you want to know and comply with the regs I suggest reading them for yourself rather than relying on posts to a forum like this (including my posts!) I'm not saying there is misinformation on these forums, let's call it "creative interpretation of the facts"... ;)

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 15:48:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Bottom line - YOU are required to carry flares and have been since 1981. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Required to carry flares?...Prove it.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2011 : 20:59:31

I agree--you're not required to carry flares.

You're required to carry an approved daylight signal and an approved night signal. One flare does not qualify for either--it must be three. The night signal can be a light that automatically flashes SOS. But the USCG's regulations are very difficult to interpret--particularly if you look at their site or any of their publications. It's been good for the flare manufacturers.

Then again, as Sten says, the prudent mariner is not looking for the minimum requirement for safety--he's looking at every contingency and preparing for it in advance. That mariner probably has only one issue to worry about with the USCG, and that's the expiration dates on his pyrotechnics. Although even that issue will be negated if the mariner also has alternative day and/or night signalling devices. But now were're getting into how you can meet or beat the minimum requirements for safety...

Why you would avoid carrying three day-night flares on a 25' sailboat is a mystery to me. And why you would not want to carry as many alternatives as practical, and be knowledgeable on their use, is as much of a mystery. The CG regs are minimal! A flag in the daytime is not going to get anybody's attention. (Do you even know what it looks like?) A flashing white light at night, to most people, looks like a navigation aid. Trouble on the water is not like trouble on the highway. People in the water is not like people by the highway. The water at night is not like the highway at night. You want attention--by whatever means possible! Your passengers are relying on you, and Don, your family at home is relying on you.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/15/2011 21:01:50

redviking
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 05:42:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Bottom line - YOU are required to carry flares and have been since 1981. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Required to carry flares?...Prove it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm.... ¿Verdad? I'm sorry, I know I'm just not that bright, but, can you site where it says that you are NOT required to carry flares? Maybe the flag cuts it for day use - brilliant

and a strobe? cuts it for night use? Can you really pass inspection with just a flag and a flashing thing? If you saw an orange flag with a couple of black spots on it, would you know what that meant? Would most anyone other than a handful of us know which way to even fly the banner? Would anyone around you just think your burgee was colorful? But I digress, I just wonder why have I been buying flares all of these years? 4th of July Party tonight on H dock.

We don't need to carry them there flares anymore! Wahoooo!

sten

Edited by - redviking on 04/16/2011 05:54:45

redviking
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 06:11:12

By the way, as previously noted, my wife's guffaw over the thread started a conversation with our neighbors. Liveaboards, nice boat, two married guys... Yes, they have flares and such, BUT, they did tell us a story of how they were in bad conditions and saw a pair of flares go up - AND DID NOTHING! Guess they had their hands full, but no call to the Coasties, no altering course to investigate - nothing... Needless to say, I disapprove - but I wasn't there... Dunno... I'll bet any amount of money I'd probably die trying to help a fellow mariner just 'cuz he/she had flares.

sten

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 06:53:48

I am not particularly up on the regs regarding carrying flares, etc but whenever I have had a boat it seems that I always maintain a kit with the flares (within use dates), and assorted other warning devices. However, I recall a few years ago boarded by the USCG in my area and they checked my boat out. I asked them if they also wanted to see my flares, etc and their answer was "not necessary" since I am sailing in river waters that are not all that far from shorelines...I forget if that was within 1 or 2 miles, flares were not needed. But I still carry flares and replace them when they approach the expiration date.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 07:12:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 
Bottom line - YOU are required to carry flares and have been since 1981. But if you want to flout the rules, it's your life. BUT, I'll ultimately pay higher insurance premiums, etc...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Depends on where you are. I'm not required to carry flares as I'm boating on an inland, Texas lake.

http://www.boat-ed.com/tx/course/p4-17_checklist.htm

Texas only requires Day/Night visual signals when boating on federally controlled waters:

Coastal waters
The Great Lakes
Territorial seas
Waters which are two miles wide or wider and are connected directly to one of the above

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 07:20:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe DiverDepends on where you are. I'm not required to carry flares as I'm boating on an inland, Texas lake.

http://www.boat-ed.com/tx/course/p4-17_checklist.htm

Texas only requires Day/Night visual signals when boating on federally controlled waters:

Coastal waters
The Great Lakes
Territorial seas
Waters which are two miles wide or wider and are connected directly to one of the above
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Remind me not to go sailing on waters less than two miles wide and landlocked!

sten

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 07:42:48

I should have said distress signals...we're still required to have nav lights of course!

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 09:46:28

You're required to carry an approved daylight signal and an approved night signal.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

Your statement above, while kind of true, may be a bit misleading. I believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only required to carry night time visual display devices when operating between sunset and sunrise? One might infer from your statement that you are required to carry both day and night VSD's all the time.

Gentlemen, I'm not advocating people get by with the minimum requirements, I'm just trying to, hopefully, provide accurate information (I know, sometimes I don't

) and I'm fairly certain if I put something out there that wasn't quite clear or was simply wrong, there'd be a quick response pointing out the error of my ways. As the self-proclaimed resident curmudgeon, you know what I mean.

In addition to the dozen or so lifejackets, horseshoe lifebouy, numerous throwable type IV's, I carry flags, flashlights, canned air horns, lung powered air horns (for when the canned air runs out), and yes, flares. I used to carry a flare gun as well, but since most of my sailing is in Canada, and with the ambiguity/confusion I had about the legality of carrying a flare gun there, I stopped carrying it.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Your passengers are relying on you, and Don, your family at home is relying on you.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh, and Dave, you needn't worry about my family at home as they know exactly the kind of sailor I am and how meticulous/particular I am concerning my boat. Probably the "attention to detail" mentality I picked up during my six years active duty in the Navy.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 09:53:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 I should have said distress signals...we're still required to have nav lights of course!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Uh oh. I sense another can of worms being opened here? Okay, I'll pop the top.

As to being required to have nav lights, not necessarily.

Edited by - on

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