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Flares and Strobes?

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 10:22:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...can you site where it says that you are NOT required to carry flares?..Can you really pass inspection with just a flag and a flashing thing? If you saw an orange flag with a couple of black spots on it, would you know what that meant?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

[url="http://www.boat-ed.com/mi/handbook/distressdevices.htm#nonpyrotechnic"]Michigan Boating Laws[/url]
[url="http://www.uscgboating.org/fedreqs/default.html"]USCG Boating Req's[/url]

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Can you really pass inspection with just a flag and a flashing thing?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 If you saw an orange flag with a couple of black spots on it, would you know what that meant?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If someone were on the water waving an orange flag with a couple of black spots on it, or even frantically waving a beach towel or their arms, I'm fairly certain I know what that means.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 10:48:38

Sten, pages 17-20 of that Federal Boater's Guide say that you can choose pyrotechnics, or not. You have to have one approved thing for day and one for night. If you choose pyrotechnics, you need three to meet either the day or the night requirement, and they can be approved day/night types, so a total of three can meet both requirements. I'm not arguing against having flares--far from it--but the regs don't require them.

I also noticed that while a strobe that flashes in a steady pattern is recommended for locating purposes, it does not meet the requirement for an electric night signalling device, which must automatically flash SOS. They don't do a great job of making all of this clear.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 11:35:14

In some respects, I think the flag is more functional than a flare, as a daytime distress signal. The flag must be 3 feet square (which is 9 square feet), and international orange with a black square and a black circle on it. Thus, it's big, and it's distinctive enough that, if you saw it flying on a boat, you'd probably investigate further, and, if you saw someone waving at you, you'd realize someone needed help. It has no expiration date, so it never needs to be replaced. Also, when it is displayed, it remains there until you take it down. A flare, by comparison, only burns for a short time, and then it burns out. If you don't attract someone's attention with 3 flares, you're done. I had a distress flag on my C25, but don't have one on my present boat, and am thinking I should get one.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 11:58:14

To add to Steve's point about flags, if you were in a boat in distress that had a fuel leak which fills the cabin and decks with gas fumes. Do you really want to fire up that handheld flare?

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 12:13:13

I'm gonna puke!

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 13:25:33

How about having all of them?? Flares will get more attention, especially in other than broad daylight. A flag might be better in some situations, although it will be invisible to windward or leeward. If you think a flashing white SOS is going to turn heads in almost any situation, particularly with shore lights around you, I'm guessing you were once a Boy Scout.

Have you figured out all of the possible emergencies in advance? Are we talking about a major investment? Do you have your explanation ready when your plan doesn't pan out after you opted not to have some variety and redundancy? Do you buy the car with the smallest number of airbags? Do you prefer the minimum number of controllers (1) in the airport tower (asleep--an example of the plan "not panning out")?

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 16:31:06

My flares expire in Jan 2014.

Edited by - on

booyacht
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 19:10:33

I just bought a flare gun with plenty o' flares thanks to this thread :) and 4 of those manual hand held flares... But Don's scenario makes me want a flag too!

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Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 19:49:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
Uh oh. I sense another can of worms being opened here? Okay, I'll pop the top.

As to being required to have nav lights, not necessarily.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't know man....just follow the link I posted above and it says they are required by state law...I don't really feel like digging through Texas Department of Transportation codes to find the actual law and reference to it.

Edited by - Joe Diver on 04/16/2011 19:50:12

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 20:44:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
Uh oh. I sense another can of worms being opened here? Okay, I'll pop the top.

As to being required to have nav lights, not necessarily.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't know man....just follow the link I posted above and it says they are required by state law...I don't really feel like digging through Texas Department of Transportation codes to find the actual law and reference to it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The link refers to "federally-controlled" waters--I presume meaning USCG jurisdiction. From Connecticut (where the waters are mostly federal), I can't tell you what those are in Texas. But I will anticipate that local jurisdictions have adopted similar if not identical regulations.

Again--go with the minimal requirements for your safety precautions if you're completely comfortable as the skipper responsible for people's lives... Otherwise, give it some more thought. But remember--you're responsible. I'm not completely comfortable with all the stuff I've got.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/16/2011 20:47:29

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 21:36:51

The only areas in Texas I'm aware of would be our coastal waters and the bays. We don't really have any navigable rivers to speak of...there are sections of the Colorado and Brazos, but they're limited.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2011 : 06:22:43

Edited by - dlucier on 04/17/2011 10:00:45

DaveR
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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2011 : 06:57:50

Thank you, great info folks. Although we get a little heated/silly sometimes a TON of great information comes to light because of it. It's made me rethink what I have on board. Will be adding the flag and a few more flares. Oh, and a flag halyard!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2011 : 09:04:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Actually, the law probably says you must display nav lights between sunrise and sunset, or during periods of inclement weather.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Interesting question... Each time I've been boarded, the Coasties checked the placement and function of my lights. I think they expect lights to be properly positioned, approved types, and in working order on the assumption that you might need them (for example, when a fog bank rolls in or you happen to not make it home by dusk). I don't know what they would do if my boat didn't have them--maybe I'll ask next time I host a boarding party. I'm guessing they'd call it a violation. I vaguely recall somebody telling me they were written up (I don't know about a fine) for having a burned out bulb--in broad daylight.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/17/2011 09:16:30

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/17/2011 : 10:57:01

I just read Nav Rules 20 et seq., and, although it could have been said more clearly, I'm sure they would be interpreted to require that boats be equipped with working lights, regardless of whether or not they are being used at the time. I think you could be cited for either operating a boat without displaying the required lights, or for operating a boat that is not equipped with the required lights.

Rule 22 says, " The lights prescribed in these Rules shall have an intensity as specified in Section 8 [Intl] of Annex I to these [Regulations / Rules] so as to be visible at the following minimum ranges...." If the lights don't work, then they don't have the required intensity...so as to be visible at the [required] ranges.

You can read the rules and draw your own conclusions at the following hyperlink: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule22

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2011 : 11:28:12

Keep a copy of the boating laws for your state and the [url="http://www.uscgboating.org/fedreqs/default.html"]Federal Requirements[/url] onboard. I'm not a fan of questioning authority, especially during a boarding, but if they try to write me up or fine me for not having four flares aboard, I might ask them politely if I could retrieve my copy of the federal requirements from below because I was almost sure the reg's stated only three were required?

Steve,

Rule 22 applies to the visibility of lights (Rule 21 defines the lights themselves) and Rule 20 applies to the use of said lights. From the Federal Requirements for Recreational Boats brochure, which spells out the requirements for those of us who need it in plain English...

"Recreational vessels are required to display navigation lights between sunset and sunrise and during periods of restricted visibility (fog, rain, haze, etc.)"

Now that appears to say something other than, "recreational vessels are required to have working navigation lights at all times" doesn't it?

(Told ya it was gonna be another can of worms!

)

Edited by - dlucier on 04/17/2011 12:09:08

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/17/2011 : 15:56:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Steve,

Rule 22 applies to the visibility of lights (Rule 21 defines the lights themselves) and Rule 20 applies to the use of said lights. From the Federal Requirements for Recreational Boats brochure, which spells out the requirements for those of us who need it in plain English... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Don, as I read it, Rule 22 requires that vessels less than 12 meters have certain nav lights that are visible at the distances prescribed by the rules. If your lights don't work, then your boat doesn't have lights that meet those standards.

Think about it this way. If your interpretation was correct, a boat builder could install defective lights on your new boat, and it would comply with the Nav Rules. It would only be out of compliance when you sailed it at night, and they didn't work. That's why the Rules require that the lights be visible at certain distances.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"Recreational vessels are required to display navigation lights between sunset and sunrise and during periods of restricted visibility (fog, rain, haze, etc.)"

Now that appears to say something other than, "recreational vessels are required to have working navigation lights at all times" doesn't it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Yes. It says your lights must be on after dark. But, it doesn't say your lights don't have to be functional, or that they don't have to be capable of being used at any time you get caught in a storm, or are late returning to your marina due to engine failure.

As I said before, others might read it differently than me. I think it could have been written more clearly, but I think it's sufficiently clear that nav lights must be functional, and not merely decorative.

We don't issue warranties with our advice on the forum, but if I'm wrong, all I'll get is a

. If you're wrong, you'll get a citation.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2011 : 17:47:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Don, as I read it, Rule 22 requires that vessels less than 12 meters have certain nav lights that are visible at the distances prescribed by the rules. If your lights don't work, then your boat doesn't have lights that meet those standards. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve,

Rule 22 to me merely states the luminosity required for each light, but Rule 20 has an interesting point in part c where it states, "The lights prescribed by these Rules shall, if carried, also be exhibited from sunrise to sunset in restricted visibility and may be exhibited in all other circumstances when it is deemed necessary."

That "if carried" implies there may be a circumstance when the lights are not carried.

Also part b states, "The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise,..." which to me means the rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise. So if the rules must be complied with between sunset and sunrise, what happens between sunrise and sunset? Reading this it appears clear that outside the defined window (sunset to sunrise) the rules don't have to be complied with, no?

RULE 20: APPLICATION

(a) Rules in this part shall be complied with in all weathers.

(b) The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.

(c) The lights prescribed by these Rules shall, if carried, also be exhibited from sunrise to sunset in restricted visibility and may be exhibited in all other circumstances when it is deemed necessary.

(d) The Rules concerning shapes shall be complied with by day.

(e) The lights and shapes specified in these Rules shall comply with the provisions of Annex I [to these Regulations / of these Rules].

RULE 22: VISIBILITY OF LIGHTS

The lights prescribed in these Rules shall have an intensity as specified in Section 8 [Intl] of Annex I to these [Regulations / Rules] so as to be visible at the following minimum ranges:

(a) In vessels of 50 meters or more in length:

a masthead light, 6 miles;
a sidelight, 3 miles;
a towing light, 3 miles;
a white red, green or yellow all-round light, 3 miles.
a special flashing light, 2 miles. [Inld]

(b) In vessels of 12 meters or more in length but less than 50 meters in length;

a masthead light, 5 miles; except that where the length of the vessel is less than 20 meters, 3 miles;
a sidelight, 2 miles;
a sternlight, 2 miles;
a towing light, 2 miles;
a white, red, green or yellow all-round light, 2 miles.
a special flashing light, 2 miles. [Inld]

(c) In vessels of less than 12 meters in length:

a masthead light, 2 miles;
a sidelight, 1 miles;
a towing light, 2 miles;
a white red, green or yellow all-round light, 2 miles.
a special flashing light, 2 miles. [Inld]
(d) In inconspicuous, partly submerged vessels or objects being towed;

a white all-round light; 3 miles.

As to boat builders and them installing defective lights, according to BoatUS, they indeed do this. From the BoatUS.org website...

"It is the responsibility of the owner/operator of a vessel that she show the proper navigation lights for her size and the waters in which she is operating. It is not the responsibility of the manufacturer, importer, or selling dealer. Many boats are delivered with lights that do not meet legal requirements with respect to technical characteristics or placement on the vessel."

(Only two weeks until launch...Can you tell I'm gettin' squirrelly?

)

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2011 : 20:04:50

"...if carried..." OK, maybe the regs offer an obscure loophole. But the absolute analogy here would be a car that doesn't "carry" headlights and tail lights, on the premise it will NEVER be driven at night. What if visibility drops unexpectedly? What if you don't get home before dark, even though you planned to? My sense is that, like every land-side police organization, the Coasties believe the lights must be there, even at high noon on a cloudless day. And why would they not?? Does anyone know for sure they won't need them at some point in time?

The caution about builders' compliance is worth considering. For example, red/green lights mounted in the hull at the bow are likely not to meet the regulations because the angles are wrong--the lights themselves are designed to show 112.5 degrees from dead ahead, but the angle of the bow might reduce that to closer to 90 degrees. That's why "whale eyes" are no longer considered to be legal (except to the extent somebody might give you a "grandfather" exemption). Catalina doesn't install them any more, and didn't by the time they built my '85.

OK, sorry... this discussion is getting silly. We're giving Sten the dry heaves!

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 04/17/2011 : 21:20:16

Speaking of "whale eyes"...

One of the things I did this weekend was replace mine. CD has new lenses cheap and Pep Boys has the bulbs...so for $20 I replaced it all. My old lenses were crazed over and faded, so when lit they just kinda "glowed"....not very visible.

Wow! What a difference those nice new clear lenses and bright bulbs made. I took a snooze at sunset up in the v berth and it was fully dark when I woke up. I lit up my boat with all my new cabin lights and fired up my running lights. They are super bright now! The marina is well lit, with spots on the slips, street lamps on the docks and decorative globe lights....but it was very obvious my nav lights were on. They lit up the slip up front so I could easily see underneath the dock, and lit up the slips next to me. I crouched down to the level the average boater would be at and they were even brighter. They look fantastic.

So, for MY purposes and mine alone on Eagle Mountain Lake...they will work perfectly as intended in the conditions I'm likely to encounter.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2011 : 05:25:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 OK, sorry... this discussion is getting silly.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

I wouldn't consider a discussion that inspires one captain to buy a flare gun and handheld flares and another to add a distress flag to his safety equipment, silly. As someone who lost one brother to a pool drowning accident and almost lost another to drowning right in front of me at a beach (he was revived, thank God!), I'm very well aware of the dangers presented by the water. That's why discussions such as this, that I know at times start out innocently enough yet can seem to get out of hand, are still important.

Edited by - dlucier on 04/18/2011 05:28:41

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/18/2011 : 05:46:41

So.. keep the flares if you have a problem with the whistle pigs... and .. keep an eye out for a SOS strobe.

http://www.rangerjoes.com/Flashlight-Mini-LED-Anglehead-P3204.aspx

I think I'll get a few of these ( 10 bucks ).. always loved them. and you can SOS with them. ( in addition to my strobe )

Edited by - redeye on 04/18/2011 05:48:01

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2011 : 06:06:07

Ray, I would not expect it for the price of those flashlights, but it would be handy dandy if it had an automatic [url="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA040000CLD4&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Flashlights-_-G-Flare-_-9SIA040000CLD4"]... --- ...[/url] function.

Paul

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2011 : 07:46:16

[url="http://www.powerflare.com/index.html"]PowerFlare[/url]

Probably not USCG approved, but I might get one of these to throw on top of the car if I were broke down on the side of the road in the dark of night.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/18/2011 : 08:33:12

Hey.. now you're talkin... none of them pigwhistles with one of these onboard...

Edited by - redeye on 04/18/2011 08:40:29

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