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Headsail Position

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Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/26/2011 : 08:33:54

The few times I've taken my boat out, I've noticed the headsail is not positioned where I want it.

The tack attaches right at the attachment point on the bow, so when hoisted fully, it has about 2'+ of free space from the head to the top of the mast. Problem is, it drapes over the pulpit. It's been this way for a while as there are smudges on the sail where it rubs on the pulpit. It's also hard to see under.

What I'd like to do is have the tack attach above the pulpit. I have the room up top for this, so that when it's fully hoisted it will be all the way to the top, above the pulpit so it flies free, and I can see under it.

So, what are my options here? Should I find a rigger who can clamp an attachment point for the tack on the forestay, just above the pulpit? Is there some sort of extension system that can attach between the bow and tack to raise it up?

Scott

When we left, we had just enough fuel to make it to San Juan. And now... we are out of fuel!

Edited by - on

KenDavis
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 08:50:00

yes you can attach a short length of line from the sail tack to the bow. adjust until you get the length you want and then if you want have a rigger (or sail loft) make a stainless piece with a snap shackle. There is a name for it that escapes me, someone will chime in soon.

Oh, you might add a hank (small bronze clip avail a West Marine)where you'll tie a bowline to the tack to keep it close to the headstay.

Edited by - on

kentwm
Navigator

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101 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 08:58:29

I was thinking about doing this for my 110 jib... anyone have any thoughts on performance? Will it impact performance? I do some club racing with my boat and don't want to give up any performance.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 09:10:23

Ken, I have several extra brass hanks in my parts kit already. So, I can just rig a line from the bow up to the tack, where I want it and hank the tack to the forestay? What kind of line should I use?

Edited by - Joe Diver on 04/26/2011 09:11:14

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 09:13:09

Scott, the easiest and least expensive way to do what you want is to get a jib pendant. It's simply a piece of SS cable with an eye on both ends. You attach one end to the tack of the jib and the other end to the tack on the boat. You can get them in differing lengths, but I suggest you use the shortest possible that will accomplish your objective. You should be aware, however, that raising the jib will raise the center of effort of the jib, and that will increase the tendency of the boat to heel.

But, all sloops have a jib and a mainsail, and we all have the same visibility problem. There are different types of jibs. A racing jib is cut low, so that the foot of the sail sweeps the deck. A cruising jib has the foot cut considerably higher, and it's easier to see under it. There are two long-term solutions. First, when you replace your jib, you can order it with the cruising cut. It will provide somewhat better visibility, but you'll lose some sail area, and consequently some boat speed. Secondly, you can do what most of us do, and that is to simply develop a habit of leaning out and looking around and under the jib frequently.

Some people have windows cut into their jibs, but windows don't work as well on bigger boats as they do on small ones, and they can present maintenance problems. Nobody has devised an ideal solution yet, so most of us learn to lean out and look under it.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 09:51:56

I've added a "downhaul" ( not really a downhaul}, or a "cunningham" (not really a cunningham) or a short line at the bottom of the jib, with a snap shackle for the jib clew, and then runs through a block and ties off at the pulpit. I added the line first and cleated on the bow cleats so it was easy to adjust, and later tied it off after I was happy with the length.

I've bought other sails at different times that it will help adjust for.. Hmm.. maybe it is a cunningham...

Edited by - redeye on 04/26/2011 09:56:11

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 10:44:35

Jib Pendant.....I'll start looking for one of those. Thanks so much for that.

What I'm trying to accomplish most of all is getting my jib lifted above the pulpit so it no longer drags and drapes on it....secondary is getting it up so I can see under it. It looks to me like I have the room at the top.

So, once I do this, it's going to change the way the boat sails? (It's a 110, BTW)

Edited by - Joe Diver on 04/26/2011 11:39:48

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 11:26:50

Problem is, it drapes over the pulpit.

Rather normal, especially with deck sweepers.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 11:50:29

The only performance change you will see is that the centre of effort is moved aloft, which will induce more heeling angle for the sail size, but may allow you to catch wind that is up higher. I think your net gain will be little, but I am not an expert.

What size of sail do you have, and is it built for a C-25? This sounds suspiciously like a re-purposed sail to me. I have no issues with that, but you may never get a proper fit if you are trying to fit Chevy rims on a Ford.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 12:18:14

The colorful sail in my sig photo came with the boat. It's a 150, but either it came from another boat or it was for a std rig C-25; I've got a tall rig. I have a jib pendant attached to it, about 15" long, maybe 18, can't remember. It's wire from a former wire/rope halyard set-up, after shortening the wire to use for the topping lift. WM put in the extra thimbles for me. It works well, raising the foot of the sail so I can see under it. I can use the pendant with the working jib also. It brings the clew of the sail almost to the top of the bow pulpit.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/26/2011 12:19:27

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 14:55:03

That's what I'm looking to achieve....moving the tack to the top of the pulpit.

No idea the origin of the sails, they came with the boat and I didn't ask. I just thought it odd that it drapes over the pulpit on both tacks, and there's plenty of space at the top to hoist it up above the pulpit.

So, you got your pendant made at WM?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 19:03:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 I just thought it odd that it drapes over the pulpit on both tacks...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yep. That's normal.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 20:41:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier

Yep. That's normal.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well....maybe I'm seeing a problem where one doesn't actually exist?

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 21:27:47

You are.

I added a pendant (made up by WM) to my 110 and raised it approx. 18". It works great and I can easily see under the sail. I didn't really notice much difference as far as heel after adding the pendant and in my opinion it's not worth worrying about. If the wind is really up and you're worried about the extra heel, just leave the pendant off.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2011 : 21:31:01

When I converted both boats, C-22 and C-25, to all rope halyards, I took the wire rope from the C-22 and used it to make topping lifts for both boats. The shorter main halyard wire stayed with the C-22. The slightly longer wire jib halyard wire went to the C-25. It was too long for the topping lift so I cut about 20" off and asked the guy at WM to put on a new thimble on each piece after making the cut. The shorter piece of wire became the jib pendant.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2011 : 06:00:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 
I added a pendant (made up by WM) to my 110 and raised it approx. 18". It works great and I can easily see under the sail. I didn't really notice much difference as far as heel after adding the pendant and in my opinion it's not worth worrying about. If the wind is really up and you're worried about the extra heel, just leave the pendant off.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Gary,

Thats exactly what I did with an older standard rig 110 a long while back and it works like a charm. When the wind picks up its nice to not have waves spashing into the jib's foot also! And in those conditions its nice to have that extra little bit of visibility looking under the jib too! And a subtle but useful effect is the sheeting point moves aft a bit, which narrows the sheeting angle and helps with pointing.....

I liked it so much I did the same thing to my 130 (also a sail for a standard rig). Its the sail I use 90% of the time when just daysailing or cruising and the pendant keeps it up and clear of things.

Chuck

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2011 : 08:39:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cshaw
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 
I added a pendant (made up by WM) to my 110 and raised it approx. 18". It works great and I can easily see under the sail. I didn't really notice much difference as far as heel after adding the pendant and in my opinion it's not worth worrying about. If the wind is really up and you're worried about the extra heel, just leave the pendant off.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Gary,

Thats exactly what I did with an older standard rig 110 a long while back and it works like a charm. When the wind picks up its nice to not have waves spashing into the jib's foot also! And in those conditions its nice to have that extra little bit of visibility looking under the jib too! And a subtle but useful effect is the sheeting point moves aft a bit, which narrows the sheeting angle and helps with pointing.....

I liked it so much I did the same thing to my 130 (also a sail for a standard rig). Its the sail I use 90% of the time when just daysailing or cruising and the pendant keeps it up and clear of things.

Chuck
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've got a 150 that I use most of the time and I keep forgetting to check out how high it goes when fully hoisted. I don't think I have any room to add a pendant.

I like using it most of the time but it gets to be a pain having to constantly be looking around the sail to make sure it's clear ahead.

Edited by - on

mmac
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2011 : 08:47:02

I used a jib pennant on my 110 for many years until I got my CDI Furler. It was just a short piece of SS cable that got the tack high enough off the deck for good visibility under the sail. As Chuck mentioned adjusting the genoa cars took care of the changes in sail performance. I think Ken was suggesting that you use a piece of line as a "jig" to determine how long a piece of cable you would need. I imagine, though, you could make the pennant out of a strong piece of line and couple of knots and shackles.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2011 : 11:17:43

Okay, sounds like since there's really not an issue here, it's more of a "bugs me" thing.

I'll get a pendant made up and give it a shot.....if I don't like it or it changes the way the boat sails, or whatever else, I can always just not use it and go back to the deck sweeper.

Thanks guys!

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2011 : 15:13:08

When I bought my bought the PO was just using a piece of 5/16" line as a pendant. I later had WM build up the SS pendant I use now.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2011 : 15:21:20

On our C25 we had two hank on sails, a 110 and an 85. I made up a pendant that would work with both and took them off the tack to avoid this rubbing on the pulpit. It worked great for visibility and SAFETY. Yours and others... The pendant was SS with D shackles on each end. I wouldn't trust a regular shackle, I just don't like 'em. Because the heads of neither sail made it all the way to the top of the forestay, this solid pendant worked OK.

On our C34 I deliberately had the ProFurl system selected with the long link plates to raise the tack to see under for our 110 and 90 jibs. Since in this case the tacks are at different levels since the furling drum up top and the head of the sail are "all the way up", with slightly different luff lengths, I made a tack pendant out of strong thin line I got at a bargain bin at WM. The pendant runs three times through both the tack grommet of the tack of the sail and the D shackle at the base of the furling drum. I just tie a couple of looped hitches (like your second knot on your shoelaces) in it to keep it tight; the stiffer line makes it easy for the hitches to hold and easy to undo.
,
What this allows me to do are three things: 1) use one pendant "line" for both sails with slightly different luff dimensions on the same furler; 2) get enough "leverage" with the three times through to pull the tack down without undue effort or complicated blocks and/or costly marine fittings; 3) loosen the luff of the sail every time we come back to the dock without messing with our jib halyard (which is cleated off at the mast while every other line is led back; I never mess with the jib halyard, only the line pendant - sure I have to go up to the bow when unfurling the jib and when coming back but that's only for daysails, other times we're out for longer I leave the luff of the jib tight.). Sailmakers suggest that the jib luff be loosened when furled.

For those with furlers, I find this easier than a solid pendant. I tried the solid ones and unless they're a tad too short, you end up with the head of the sail all the way up and a loose tack. Eventually even SS will creep and expand.

You won't notice the difference when sailing. The main "heeler" is the mainsail, plus the CG of the jib is nearer the lowest third of the the sail anyway (remember high school trig?

:)).

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 04/27/2011 15:52:59

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2011 : 20:25:49

I just remembered to turn my signature back on and realized my Sig. Picture will give you a good look at the height of my 110 when it's on the pendant.

Edited by - GaryB on 04/29/2011 20:26:59

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2011 : 06:50:23

Perfect....that's what I'm looking for. How tall is your pendant?

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2011 : 08:45:17

I think it's about 18" but I can measure when I go down to the boat tomorrow. Seems like it's an inch or two below the bottom of the pulpit.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2011 : 21:53:24

I measured when I was on the boat yesterday. 28" will put the base of the sail right at the top of the pulpit.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2011 : 21:55:10

It's been a while since I updated this particular thread....I had a jib pendant made up at West Marine a couple weeks ago....28". Today I used it for the frst time.

Eddy (eguevara) and his girlfriend came out to join me in a late afternoon and evening sail. It was a perfect evening for sailing...nice and breezy on the water, and cooler than the surrounding areas...still hot though, but it's Texas and June...We had a great sail into the night.

The jib pendant was just perfect and exactly what I wanted. It put the bottom of the sail right at the top of the pulpit rail, and still was just a bit from the top of the mast. Eddy thinks I have a C22 jib....maybe so? Anyway, it did what I was looking for: picked the sail up off the deck so it didn't drape over the pulpit, and I could easily see under it for a great view ahead. Didn't make any noticeable difference in performance or handling. Thanks for the advise guys!

Edited by - on

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