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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/24/2011 : 06:04:23

Took SWMBO and the kids out on the long weekend. Kids are 13, 3, and 3 mos. SWMBO is a nervous wreck whenever she steps on the boat.

Under Main alone we hit 7.6 kts on a broad reach. Boat sat nice and flat despite whatever wind we found (everything from light zephyrs to hard gusts), and we had a great time. Less is more when it comes to sails and SWMBO.

SWMBO kept telling the 3 yr old to hold on and be careful. In turn, he kept yelling at the 13 yr old to be careful. Everyone was very careful. It was great to get out after a winter that seemed it would never end.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 06:20:04

Hurray! Glad the family did so well!

Was the long weekend Victoria Day?

Happy Victoria Day! You know, the very popular Queen of the former British Empire enjoyed sailing, too!
.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 07:47:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Took SWMBO and the kids out on the long weekend. Kids are 13, 3, and 3 mos. SWMBO is a nervous wreck whenever she steps on the boat.

Under Main alone we hit 7.6 kts on a broad reach. Boat sat nice and flat despite whatever wind we found (everything from light zephyrs to hard gusts), and we had a great time. Less is more when it comes to sails and SWMBO.

SWMBO kept telling the 3 yr old to hold on and be careful. In turn, he kept yelling at the 13 yr old to be careful. Everyone was very careful. It was great to get out after a winter that seemed it would never end.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

First off what is SWMBO and secondly I thought the hull speed of a Catalina 25 was 6.3.

Are you using a GPS to calculate.

NCBrew

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 08:30:23

Keep in mind that the gps is measuring the speed of the antenna's motion. Changing direction, pitching, or a sudden heel can give a transient high or low reading. One of mine slid of my car dash while going around a bend and bounced off the seat to the floor; it registered 256 mph, pretty fast for a Grande Cherokee. Hull speed is an approximate limit, subject to many vagaries and can easily be exceeded in a variety of conditions for short periods. Most sailboats fall in the 1.2 - 1.4 multiplier range, but it can vary from 1 - 5 with extreme hull forms.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 05/24/2011 08:35:21

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 08:40:31

How in the world did you get 7.6 kts from the main alone?

Last night I was on the main alone, with maybe 10kts steady, with a puff here and there, and the best I saw on my GPS was 3.6.....the best I've seen so far under both sails was 5.8. I don't really know what I'm doing yet though....

I've seen 7.6 before but that was on a friend's C36, close hauled in fairly strong winds. He said the best he's ever seen was 7.86....he has nice Raymarine intruments.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 09:09:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 How in the world did you get 7.6 kts from the main alone?

Last night I was on the main alone, with maybe 10kts steady, with a puff here and there, and the best I saw on my GPS was 3.6.....the best I've seen so far under both sails was 5.8. I don't really know what I'm doing yet though....

I've seen 7.6 before but that was on a friend's C36, close hauled in fairly strong winds. He said the best he's ever seen was 7.86....he has nice Raymarine intruments.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

With spin up and a strong breeze I've seen over 10 on an Olson 30. My Raymarine has registered 6.9 on a reach, it was a blustery day and I had a BIG guy sitting to weather.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3459 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 09:22:32

I was out Sunday for a small sail. Due to the heavy rains last week, there was significant debris floating down the river and the current was faster than normal. I decided to not go out on Saturday since there were warnings about the debris and current but ventured out on Sunday and had a great sail. There was lots of small debris and an occasional trunk of a tree or humungous large log to avoid but it seemd to follow a certain path in the river and once halfway cross the river, the river was pretty much clear of all obstructions. I don't know what the wind speed was but I for the most part had my 150 genoa trimmed to 100-110%. Coming back on a broad reach, I had one major buoy to go past and then out of the Potomac and then Washington Channel and into the Anocostia River to my marina. So, I decided to furl up my genoa and go with the main alone. That's when I realized how strong the current was when the buoy seemed to be gaining on me. I then altered course a bit to go more parallel with the Potomac until I was fully away from the Buoy and then turned once again into the Wash Channel/Anacostia. Once in those waters, things were calmer. Nice sail overall but river sailing has it's hazards.

On Saturday, I was applying Polyglow to the port side having already finished with the starboard side a couple of days ago (in between the rains). On Saturday, two motorboats were towed into the marina slips and I helped one get into his finger slip. I thought they had damage from the debris but it turned out since this past weekend was a real good weekend compared to past weeks, many were out on their boats for the first time and suffered the sometimes normal calamities with first time out. One motorboat had battery issues. The other...well he somehow had a line dangling off the stern and that then wrapped up around his prop. He was done for the day but lucked out. On Sunday, he untangled the mess and he was back out on his boat with no damage to prop or drive.
I may go out again this afternoon. 50% chance of rain...so I will probably go down the marina and see what it looks like then.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 09:30:51

I believe that theoretical max hull speed is when close-hauled to weather. On a broad reach, poled out, I have often seen 7 - 8 knots. I also once saw 10 knots on a C22 on a beam reach with just a full main and no jib. (I was alongside an O'Day 28 and his knotmeter was very accurate). It was a wild ride for both of us!

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 10:24:49

Not to get into the hull speed debate once again... This was waveless on a freshening breeze, flat on our feet, speed by GPS on our lake which has no currents to speak of. We regularly peg 8 knts on a broad reach, and 7.6 under main alone was nice, but no surprise. Our highest sustained speed was over 9 knts last season. I think I posted about it here. It baffled me at the time, but on a reach, before waves build we can regularly beat hull speed, and do. Whenever the wind is from the south, we can really boogie since our marina is on the south shore of the lake, and the waves aren't very big. Fastest I've sailed was on a friend's Tripp 36. I don't know how fast it was as teh skipper kept yelling get the *&^)W@% on the high side and trim the &@#^#$ sail.

SWMBO is "She who must be obeyed. My wife.

Yes, it was Victoria Day Weeekend. The first party weekend of the season, and the weather was fantastic, thanks. First races are this coming weekend.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 11:40:45

And Chris, you've recorded these speeds on different gps/speed recording devices?
Also (and of course) GPS measures the speed at which you travel over the earth, not the water, and the wind which pushes you also pushes the water so there are a number of factors to consider. Fresh or salt water, point of heel, etc.

Edited by - DaveR on 05/24/2011 12:03:59

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 11:45:46

I have a Lowrance handheld and a new Standard Horizon 180i - I will have to compare between the two. A good point. I also have a new waterperoof video camera, so I'll have to get it set up to record next time I'm out. Then I'll have to find out how to post on youtube.

I should qualify that regulary is more than a half-dozen times per season, in the right wind/wave combination. I don't count 'blips' as a reportable speed. it has to show up on the GPS for more than a few seconds to count.

EDIT to add - here is the post from last year when I figured out how to beat hull speed: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21652

Edited by - Prospector on 05/24/2011 12:07:10

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 13:20:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector

SWMBO is "She who must be obeyed. My wife.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh...wow....that's a concept that does not exist in my world. Not even close.

Edited by - Joe Diver on 05/24/2011 13:22:04

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 13:31:48

The phrase "she who must be obeyed" comes from a British TV series called Rumpole of the Bailey. That's how he often referred to his wife.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumpole_of_the_Bailey

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 14:17:09

Our C-25's can easily exceed the "hull speed" with waves. I've never gone over hull speed without waves on the Bay.

The fastest point of sail for my boat is a beam reach with just about any wind speed over 2 or 3 knots. Wahoo!

I had my first day/night sail out to the Bay Blues Festival after having installed the new anchor light bulb and deck light and steaming light and the new fuse for the running lights! (Why did the fuse blow - Beats me!)

Sail on!!!

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 15:29:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector

SWMBO is "She who must be obeyed. My wife.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh...wow....that's a concept that does not exist in my world. Not even close.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, I guess man love has some advantages, but I love her and I think I'll stick with what I've got.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 17:36:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 The phrase "she who must be obeyed" comes from a British TV series called Rumpole of the Bailey. That's how he often referred to his wife.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumpole_of_the_Bailey
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Okay...good....I took it a face value....and at that is a concept that, in my world at least, just simply does not exist. In my world of hockey games, nights out at Hooters, local bars, bikini bike washes, and hanging with my Brothers in our motorcycle club....well, we treat our women very well of course, but the roles are very well defined and quite traditional. If a Brother referred to his old lady as SWMBO and we found out about it.....

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 18:07:24

Scott, I'm a bit concerned, news reporting damaging weather on Eagle Mountain lake, I hope you, yours and your boat are OK.

Now it's coming our way.....

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 19:36:59

Experience has taught that a happy wife is the least expensive of all options available. I'll stick with what works around here, and you go for what works there. Just don't call mine an old lady or things will get ugly.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 21:53:01

Peter,

I haven't been out to the marina to check on the boat, but my Mom lives in the neighborhood not even a mile from it, and my brother has a house on the hill overlooking the marina. I checked on my Mom and she was fine, no damage and little to no hail. I haven't heard from my brother but he'd call me if there was a problem. I'll go out there tomorrow over lunch and check on the boat. It was interesting here in NRH. The rotation and wall cloud passed right over my house. I heard there is some possible damage around 820 and Rufe Snow, and some in Watauga....both locations directly west of my house. We got rain, wind and hail, but nothing like they got in Irving. At one point, I was standing in my back yard looking up as the wall cloud passed over, the sirens wailing, and the rotation quite evident as the base lowered and spun...but, no funnel ever formed. One of my Brothers in Irving got some severe damage. He claims softball sized hail, says his and his old lady's cars are badly damaged, roof of the house is pitted all over, and many windows are broken. He says it looks like someone took a baseball bat to his car. They have no power, but are okay and that's all that really matters anyway. I hope everyone else out there is okay. Did you guys out on Ray Hubbard come through okay?

Prospector....old lady is just a term quite commonly used in my world...doesn't mean anything bad and nobody takes it that way. But if they do and things get ugly, thats cool too. We like ugly. Hell, most of them call us their old man....just the way it is.

Edited by - on

Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 22:33:50

Are you sure your GPS is set to show kts instead of mph?

Edited by - on

Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
129 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 23:15:51

I would think the gps is set to Kilometers per Hour ie kps ( As used in the advanced world)
7.6 Knots would need waves to surf or on a reach a fair degree of heal.. ( 7.6 kph is about 4.8 knots )
I envy you as Winter has just arrived here so overnights a bit restricted as temp gets down to 10 deg C ( about 50 deg in the old F system ).

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2011 : 03:44:11

Good point Graeme.
(My sister lives near Perth.)

Paul

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2011 : 06:01:30

Its all good Scott - I'm just grinding your gears.

And yes, I know the difference between knots and km/h and our GPS is set to knots. As I said earlier, I'll get you guys some video so you can continue to debunk the possibility of our boats beating hull speed. It may not be for a while, we have to wait for conditions to be right.

Edit to add: Max speed is not determined by the amount of canvas you have up. Being overcanvassed for conditions will slow you down. Having up more sails affects accelleration, not speed. By having the main up and not the jib, the boat was standing up, and had less heel, thus showing more canvas, and allowing lift on the keel to be converted to speed. It takes a while to wrap your head around the whole concept of less sail meaning higher speeds, but there it is. On this particular outing, we heeled to 15 degrees once, but remained at 5-10° of heel for most of the sail. Many folks on here feel that the main alone is not as efficient as the jib alone. I can't speak to that as I find that flying jib alone kills upwind performance (I like to sail tight to the wind on a beat) but main alone allows me to point nicely enough that I'm not unhappy. I also tend to go big when I am under jib alone, and that leads us back to the whole over-canvassed thing.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/25/2011 06:45:40

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2011 : 06:04:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Boomeroo
 7.6 Knots would need waves to surf or on a reach a fair degree of heal..<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> or current. I once saw Enka do 7kts with a slight breeze on a dead run; of course there was a 5kt tide going out the ICW

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2011 : 07:09:07

Current or tide, indeed! With info from both a knotmeter to give speed relative to the water, and a gps to give speed relative to the stationary satellites, the question would likely be moot.

But what kind of currents are on your lake, Chris?

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2011 : 07:18:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Its all good Scott - I'm just grinding your gears.

It takes a while to wrap your head around the whole concept of less sail meaning higher speeds, but there it is.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

All cool man....never was upset to begin with.

While the basics of putting out sail and getting going are pretty easy.....all this stuff about degrees off wind, how much sail and which ones to use, sail trim with tools like a vang, cunningham, mast bending, outhaul....yeah, getting my head around all this stuff is gonna take time and practice....but will be worth it to get that extra knot or two out of her.....and it's fun...adds some technical aspect to it which increases the challenge.

So far, I see sailing is kinda like golf...more a battle with yourself. Anyone can whack a little ball and eventually get it in the hole, just like anyone can hoist a sail and get the boat going.....but, to do either one well requires good technique, some knowledge, and consistent application of both.

Edited by - on

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