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should I take this free Catalina sailboat?

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CountLuckner
Deckhand

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Initially Posted - 07/28/2011 : 15:05:36

Hi, I'm posting because I have recently come across the opportunity to have a 1981 Catalina 25 for free. I went to look at her several days ago and took some pictures that are here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8231252@N02/sets/72157627165947533/ br /

Although I haven't repaired sailboats before or even owned a sailboat before, I picked up several books on doing so that seem good and very bullish on anyone being able to do so and I don't mind putting some hard work in.

But the question I have is whether there's anything about the sailboat that's going to make the amount of effort and expense that would go into the project not worthwhile. For example, are the screws that come up through hull into the bilge (connecting the hull to the keel?) having rust caked on them an important issue? I tagged some of the photos to make them easier to navigate and to highlight questions about what might be issues, though might also simply highlight my lack of familiarity with the subject. By the way, there's no mainsail, no engine and no trailer that comes with the boat.

I appreciate any input so I can figure this out soon, as I'm wary that this will be snatched up by someone else while I'm deciding. Thank You.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2011 : 15:25:42

Hard to tell from pictures of course....an up close in person inspection would be better....but I'm not seeing anything in the pictures that jumps out at me and says "run away". She's gonna need alot of work and you're gonna have to put some $$$$ into her....since she's free why not get a surveyor to take a look? Tell the person you'll take possession contingent on the results of the survey. If she surveys out, think of it this way: You bought a project boat for $500.

BUT...also take a look around at what else is available. Now is a GREAT time to be a boat buyer. There are alot of fantastic deals on complete, ready to sail boats, at what you're going to end up putting into that one.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 07/28/2011 : 15:44:36

I've certainly seen worse. Know that you are facing a lot of work. The bilge has obviously been full of water, and I can't make out the area around the "windows" to see what that is. Using alternatives for the missing teak would keep the cost down. The interior has been cleaned to make it look better than the hidden areas. Your best bet would be to have an experienced sailor familiar with these boats take a look with you since photos don't tell all. You would definitely want to put it in the water first to see if it floats and leaks. The common saying is that a $10,000 boat will cost $10,000 regardless of what you paid for it, but if you are willing to work a lot and learn as you go you could possibly end up with a safe and satisfactory boat. Some people have more time than money and 4-6K for a boat of that vintage can be harder to come by than a couple of thousand spread over the refurbishment period. caveat emptor, even for free.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 07/28/2011 15:45:48

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 07/28/2011 : 15:56:13

Where are you? It is possible that a member lives close enough to take a look with you. Don't put your exact address, email, or phone # in the thread. Something like Mutsy 5041 is at g mail dot com will limit automated email harvesters' ability to capture it.
edit: your city and state is close enough.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 07/28/2011 15:57:39

Ape-X
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/28/2011 : 16:00:12

free is still a money maker at scrap value:

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2011 : 16:43:19

except for disposing of a hull

Edited by - on

CountLuckner
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 07/28/2011 : 17:06:16

Thanks for all the responses so far. Dave, having someone knowledgeable to take a look with me would be wonderful. In case there's anyone around, I'm in NYC on the east river and the boat is in Greenwich CT. And I can pick them up if they'd like. I enabled the option to allow others to email me, but let me know if you think I should also include my email address, in masked form, in a post.

Edited by - CountLuckner on 07/28/2011 17:06:55

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 07/28/2011 : 18:10:57

The forum email is sometimes iffy, but people will generally let you know that they have emailed you - you can post your address if you don't get a message. Time for New Yorkers to jump in.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/28/2011 : 19:17:32

If you are handy and enjoy tinkering it looks like it has a lot of potential.

My observations:

The keel bolts are pretty rusty so you may need to intall sister bolts (do a search on this forum.)

The hull has obviously been painted. There is some paint rubbed off on the bow - and you can see what looks like the original gel coat - tangerine in color - oxidizes (or shows oxidation) quicker that light colors. Many/most here advise against painting over gel coat (do a search on this forum.)

I didn't see any trailers in your pix that would accomodate a C25 fin keel. Used C25 trailers are few and far between. Does the marina have a boat lift or a "yard trailer?"

Here's what one of our fellow C25 owners did.

http://towindward.tumblr.com/

Good luck and keep us posted - and ask away!!!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 06:03:56

There's no such thing as a free lunch (boat).

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 07:15:23

A few questions:

1. What are your intentions for the boat? Do you want to learn to sail her, sell her,... ? This could be a long, circuitous approach to getting into sailing.

2. You live in NYC... Where would you keep her for maybe a couple of years while you bring her back to life? How much would that cost? How would you get her there? And where will she live thereafter? A fin-keeled C-25 is not a simple thing to get on and off a trailer--it more typically lives at a marina--in the water in season, and on the hard off-season, for a fee.

3. What's your experience with fiberglass repair, wood working, electrical and plumbing systems? Or would you hire somebody for some of those things? Marine electrical systems are not to be toyed with, and plumbing can sink a boat. The keel bolts look typical for that vintage...

You might be able to get her to the $5000 value level--maybe a little higher if you really dress her up. A new outboard will be $2K... A bracket to mount the engine is another couple of "boat units" (C-notes). Sails... think $2K. Used sails and outboard are options--think half...

I'm in the area some weekends--about 7-8 miles away, but not for a few weeks. However, you might have some bigger issues to decide than the details of the condition of the boat. There are lots of ways to get into sailing, and this one won't be "free". Of course none of us own our boats for profit, but most of us have to think hard about how much money we throw into that "hole in the water, surrounded by fiberglass..."

BOAT--the acronym for Break Out Another Thousand.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/29/2011 07:25:02

calden
Navigator

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Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 08:15:52

Agree with all the cautionary statements. It's a great set of photos. Things APPEAR to be not too bad, but without hands-on evaluation I can't tell, for example, the condition of the standing rigging, or, especially, those funky-looking keel bolts.

I believe you will run into more $$$ issues than you think (we all do with boats, even those of us with experience only know to double or triple the estimates) and you will eat up a LOT more in time and aggravation.

This kind of boat is better for someone who has a sailboat they go out on for fun, and have space in the garage for a project and enjoy the time and money spent to fix it up. It looks basically sound but needs a lot. If your goal is to go sailing, you could likely find something much more water-ready for the amount of money you'd wind up spending.

Good luck - it's all fun and part of the gestalt in buying and owning a sailboat.

Carlos

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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1511 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 08:25:50

Provided that the hull and standing rigging is seaworthy, here is about how much it will cost for your free boat.

Suit of sails....1200-1500
outboard.........2000
outboard bracket..300
running rigging...500

You would have about 4300.00 into her before you could leave the dock. That does not include anything in the cabin. I am not sure fixing a C25 from the ground up is worth it. If it were an Island Packet, your sweat equity would be a lot higher. You could find a ready to use C25 for around 5k. Or a very good to excellent C25 for 8-10K.

Edited by - on

two port feet
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 11:02:10

NO
Unless your like me a gluten for punishment. Or if for some reason you want to be on a first name relation ship with WM and CD. This kind of a project becomes an obsession I know I’m on my fourth sailboat. Good luck.

Edited by - on

two port feet
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 11:03:58

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 11:20:31

DavyJ is right in principle, but used sails and outboards are available for around half price. You will spend and work more than you expect and Dave Bristle brings up important issues, so think it through before deciding to jump. Good luck, and let us know what's going on.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 11:51:17

It just occurred to me that the current owner has exhausted all other means for disposing of this hull. Now, he's turned it into a "gift".

I'd at least want to know if I liked sailing before I accepted this generosity.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 13:33:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I'd at least want to know if I liked sailing before I accepted this generosity.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and it'll be a while before you find out on this boat.

One very small plus: He replaced the original rudder with the newer, "balanced" one. But I'm puzzled by what appears to be a motley collection of wires going from the mast through a bunch of holes in the cabintop, probably gooped up with silicone sealer...

In this economy especially, if you walk into any marina and ask the management, there will be any number of unused boats on land that are available, or that are "under water" with liens from the marina for lack of payment, some of which they'd like to recover. If this boat goes quickly, even for "free", it'll be a miracle for the owner and probably a good thing for you. Don't get in a hurry--you're in the driver's seat. Scope out the market and think about where you're going.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/29/2011 13:40:05

CountLuckner
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 17:39:23

Thank You for all the responses so far and for all of the useful information and potential factors to consider. These have given me an at least rough tentative sense of how to proceed. Expounding on that and responding to some of the questions posed...

What I really want is to do is have a sailboat to sail and take trips along the coast. Of course, I could accomplish the same end more readily by buying a boat in better shape, so I also want to know that I have saved a lot of money in exchange for for an amount of time put in doing work myself that wasn't unreasonable when weighed against those savings. Thus, if it takes almost as much money to get her in decent shape as the price of a boat already in that shape, even when doing the work myself, it definitely doesn't make any sense. From the responses, it sounds like because a 30 year old Catalina 25 in good shape is already one of the more affordable sailboats, and because of the economy, that, without knowing the exact details of what this boat will need, I would likely spend nearly as much as buying such a boat in already good shape and I might even end up spending more. Thus, I'm thinking I should proceed as follows

(1)Pore over the books I've gotten on boat surveying and repair to see if I can get a detailed understanding of what the boat would need so that I can know whether the undertaking would be worthwhile. And, from what I've heard, if I miss out on the boat before I know those details, then not miss sleep over it, as there will be more opportunities and I'll be better prepared with that knowledge.

(2)Continue looking around at other older sailboats that can be had for little or no money, including, as helpfully pointed out, contacting boat yards and docks and so on.

(3)Be receptive to the advice of anyone with knowledge in the specifics of what this boat would need who is able to readily know whether or not I could do it in a worthwhile manner.

And to answer some additional questions posed...

I have no experience with fiberglass repair, electrical or plumbing systems, but my understanding from the books I picked up on sailboat repair is that all of it can be readily learned from such books and other resources as needed.

As far as where I would keep her, in an ideal scenario, the repairs that require her to be out of the water could be be done within several weeks of full time effort and, in that case, perhaps I could make arrangements for her to stay where she is during that time. Even better would be if she didn't really need any work to be done while she's out of the water. But, I'm guessing that both these scenarios are unrealistic because of hull sanding, etc probably being needed. As far as where I would do such work, I don't know yet. I'm guessing there would at least be some boat yard outside the city that allows for such work at a reasonable price.

As far as where I would keep her in the water, there's an industrial canal very close where people keep their boats tied up close to the mouth without being bothered and I was hoping to do the same. At the least, I imagine that there's somewhere less densely populated, likely outside the city, and not too far from me where I could keep the boat moored cheaply.

Again, than you for all the responses so far.

Edited by - CountLuckner on 07/29/2011 17:44:01

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 18:41:04

It sounds like a very reasoned approach. Books, helpful people, and practice can lead to the acquisition of many useful skills. A major benefit of working on a solid boat that needs attention is acquisition of new skills, and the result is that you know your boat better than most and become a much more competent and capable boat owner. Good luck.

Edited by - on

treeder65
1st Mate

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USA
50 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2011 : 19:03:07

If you're single, follow the advice here regarding looking around first. If you're married, think long and hard about it. If you have kids, run like the wind from this one. Mine is in my driveway and it's very tough to find time to work on it. My wife is wonderful, but three kids puts the kibosh on spare time. Get something you can enjoy immediately with the family if that's the case.

A recent surprise of a fourth on the way makes even less free time. Although she is the best, my wife does not agree with my assessment of "time for a bigger boat."

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2011 : 19:36:53

Count... I'm pleased to see your reasoned response to our reactions. I think you're getting it. But I'll revisit a few issues that you've brought up...

Where you work on her and where you keep her later on are significant. Boatyards are not cheap... Dockage is not cheap... especially around NYC. Really cheap dockage likely has no electricity, no water, no security, no nuthin'. Boat owners know the value of each of those and other "amenities."

Now let's talk about "trips along the coast." There are a couple of very significant prerequisites to "trips along the (Atlantic) coast." One is sailing skills, which can come from some years of experience and/or lessons from organizations like Annapolis Sailing Schools, Colgate, ASA, etc.

Another is what I'll call "seamanship"--understanding weather (I mean really understanding it), knowing what to do about adverse conditions, understanding navigation, knowing how to negotiate inlets, knowing how to anchor, knowing marine communication (with ships, other boats, the USCG, etc...)

What I'm basically saying is that if you want to travel the Atlantic coast, doing it in a boat--especially a sailboat--is something that will take some time and effort to be prepared to do with any reasonable degree of safety. Long Island Sound is one thing--the Atlantic coast is another. Learning all of these things is a wonderful, exhilarating process, but there's a lot to learn before you'll be ready to take "trips along the coast". A sailboat has some basic advantages over a powerboat in seaworthiness, but on the other hand cannot "run and hide" from conditions all that well. Her skipper should be prepared to deal with some "stuff."

So, just as we're suggesting about selecting a boat... be prepared to take your time toward your "travel" objective, and possibly to decide it is not what you really want to do. If you have not sailed before, consider learning to sail before you buy a significantly large sailboat (bigger than a 20' daysailer). See if you like sailing, and prepare yourself to move up. Take this a step at a time. It might be the most wonderful journey of your life--or you might decide you'd rather just drive to Cape May or the Chesapeake, or take the ferry to Martha's Vineyard.

Then again, your young.....

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/01/2011 06:15:12

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/01/2011 : 15:49:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CountLuckner
 Hi, I'm posting because I have recently come across the opportunity to have a 1981 Catalina 25 for free. I went to look at her several days ago and took some pictures that are here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8231252@N02/sets/72157627165947533/ br /

Although I haven't repaired sailboats before or even owned a sailboat before, I picked up several books on doing so that seem good and very bullish on anyone being able to do so and I don't mind putting some hard work in.

But the question I have is whether there's anything about the sailboat that's going to make the amount of effort and expense that would go into the project not worthwhile. For example, are the screws that come up through hull into the bilge (connecting the hull to the keel?) having rust caked on them an important issue? I tagged some of the photos to make them easier to navigate and to highlight questions about what might be issues, though might also simply highlight my lack of familiarity with the subject. By the way, there's no mainsail, no engine and no trailer that comes with the boat.

I appreciate any input so I can figure this out soon, as I'm wary that this will be snatched up by someone else while I'm deciding. Thank You.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Depends on wether you want to buy a $5000 boat in fair shape or spend $3000 fixing this one.

I don't see a lot wrong and if it was me I would take the boat as is. Use the $500 that you did not spend on the survey and since it is on the hard hire someone to sand the bottom. Buy a 9.8 long shaft and go sailing.

Or skip the paint job for now and see if you can rent an outboard and go sailing. In the mean time you can salvage this one. I will take the rudder and swim ladder.
dadinnc@gmail.com
After you sell some of the equipment you might contact a local fishing reef builder and since it has no motor and therefore no oil or fuel they will tow it out to sea and sink it.

Keep me informed on what you do. I want the rudder at least

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2011 : 17:17:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 Buy a 9.8 long shaft and go sailing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Just in case you actually do this, he meant an extra-long shaft (XL, or 25").

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2011 : 18:19:02

Having sorta restored a well worn C25 I know that their could be (no, their are!) some hidden issues. I highly suggest that you get her surveyed and thll the surveyer that you are open to TLC but not structural work. E-mail me and I can give a name of a good surveyor in the NY/CT/Westchester area.

That said, Limerick was in far worse condition when I found her in 2006. It took effort + but she sails like a dream and has proven to be a solid boat.

Good luck!

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2011 : 06:28:28

Count,

You have been given some excellent advice. I would add this (and maybe Dave B. touched on it), but you need to be certain there aren't any leins on the boat. Many times when you get a "good deal" on boat, you are taking someone else's problem off their hands. Many "good deal" boats have leins. I speak from experience. I recently bought a boat and after doing due-diligence and paying for a title search and to make sure the boat was free of leins, a lein was placed on the boat in the week between my title search and the offer. Although it was quickly resolved with the previous owner, sometimes these things can get ugly.

I would also offer this: create a "boat budget". I looked at the pictures you posted and I also agree with most of the advice already given - the boat looks to be in decent condition and well within restorable range. Some of the big ticket items have already been mentioned (sails, motor, etc), but there will be a seemingly endless need for many other little things. Just off the top of my head: battery, life jackets, signalling devices, VHF radio, various cleaners, various paints, teak replacements, running rigging, wiring repairs and supplies (surprisingly $$), new thru-hulls and valves (the ones on the boat now are dangerous), perhaps a new tiller, new keel bolts, bottom pintle on the rudder needs work, mast wiring needs work, windows need work. This will add up to serious money in short order. If you find anything serious (standing rigging needs replacement, core rot or delam), now you are talking a serious investment of time and money.

If you are just getting into sailing and boat ownership, I think one of the wisest things you could do is have this boat surveyed, but ask to go along with the surveyor and watch what he's doing. If the boat checks out with the surveyor, you just got a potential good deal on a boat and learned a lot about your new boat in the process. Think of it as a $500 crash course in boat ownership and a lot of "peace of mind"! If the boat doesn't survey well, you just saved yourself a ton of money and time AND received a crash course in boat ownership for only $500!

Back to the boat budget... I would pick a number of what you want to spend each year on your boat. Next, figure as closley as you can what it will cost. Boat repairs will intially be huge for a restoration like this, but then should ebb a bit. Some things will be constant. Slip fees, insurance, winter storage, plus all the necessary repairs could find you in the $8-9,000 range for your "free" boat in the first year.

I did a complete refit of a C-25 '82 and it took me 6 times as long as I thought it would (what I thought I could do in 2 months turned out to be 12!) I lost track of how far over budget I went. Two key things are, I love working on boats and the boat is very close to the house (15 minute drive). If you are just learning marine systems and materials, it will take you some time to do all these things. If you live far from your boat, you will again be hampered in getting much done. In short, you are about to embark on a very long journey getting this boat back to good, safe sailing condition. That can be a wonderful journey, but it can also be a major PITA. It depends on what you want to do.

If you haven't thought about it already, I offer this suggestion. Take an ASA 101 Basic Keelboat course around NYC somewhere and then rent for a season. Decide if sailing is for you before buying a big project boat. I wouldn't worry too much about this boat getting "snatched up." As my dad has told me more times than I can remember, "Son, there's always a good deal on boat."

Good luck!

Edited by - on

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