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Outpaced a MacGregor 26M...

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/03/2011 : 20:44:32

...in my dinghy!

Travel and vacation have kept us away from Take Five for the past 3 weeks, but we've been playing with the Phantom and Trophy on the lake every day this week. My son and I were out in the Phantom yesterday and left a Mac26 (under sail, not motoring) in the dust. I've heard those boats do not sail very well, but was surprised how much better we were doing.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

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Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2011 : 00:09:49

huh.... there was a time (not more then a 5 days) I wanted this boat

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2011 : 05:57:40

I've outrun a C-25 with a Sunfish (roughly the same boat as the Phantom). I also outran a 50+' Swan with our C-25 in very light air. (It was funny to watch the uniformed crew while it was happening--trying not to notice but trying to figure it out.

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/04/2011 06:00:19

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 08/04/2011 : 07:20:19

I still think the Mac 26M is a neat concept, though the compromises make it sub-optimal for both modes of power, and potentially hazardous if you motor (or sail) without the ballast completely full. Too many news stories out there about capsized Macs!

We did have an unfair advantage because the wind direction was very shifty & we could adjust instantaneously with each shift to give us a very aggressive angle to windward.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2011 : 09:41:38

Waterlines, conditions and drag... I suspect anything could outrun a Mac unless it was going directly downwind sans ballast and had two guys eating beans and contributing to propulsion.

But I wanna buy one and name it Ralph Nader, Corvair, or something equally funny and rent it to that guy that wants to take 10 special needs kids out 8 times a day. OK, I guess that is not funny, but realistic. Friends don't let enemies even think about buying that boat.

sten

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2011 : 13:58:06

It's amusing to pass a C25 std rig with our tall rig - when you hear their winches start clicking. They probably don't recognize the taller mast.

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/04/2011 : 15:41:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Waterlines, conditions and drag... I suspect anything could outrun a Mac unless it was going directly downwind sans ballast and had two guys eating beans and contributing to propulsion.

But I wanna buy one and name it Ralph Nader, Corvair, or something equally funny and rent it to that guy that wants to take 10 special needs kids out 8 times a day. OK, I guess that is not funny, but realistic. Friends don't let enemies even think about buying that boat.

sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The Mac 26S's can be very fast, this boat gave our C-27 a very hard time at Dallas Race Week....on the day I took this pic, he was simply walking away from my TR. I do admit though, that my sails are really blown out. When I get my new main this weekend that should help even things out.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 08/04/2011 : 15:58:51

Mount a remote control BB gun and try to hit below waterline. Should slow it down a bit. I hope you realize that this boat in particular makes every old school sailor want to go marina-age... Or postal, or whatever.... I would sink every one given the option. Sorry. C250's barely made the cut. I like good boats, everything else is a mayday I just have to worry about.

sten

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2011 : 20:02:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Waterlines, conditions and drag... I suspect anything could outrun a Mac unless it was going directly downwind sans ballast and had two guys eating beans and contributing to propulsion.

But I wanna buy one and name it Ralph Nader, Corvair, or something equally funny and rent it to that guy that wants to take 10 special needs kids out 8 times a day. OK, I guess that is not funny, but realistic. Friends don't let enemies even think about buying that boat.

sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The Mac 26S's can be very fast, this boat gave our C-27 a very hard time at Dallas Race Week....on the day I took this pic, he was simply walking away from my TR. I do admit though, that my sails are really blown out. When I get my new main this weekend that should help even things out.

There's another one in "B" Fleet that beats "A" fleet boats scratch. I really doubt it's class legal. Anyways, the "normal" MacGregor 26, if sailed well, can be formidable competition.

They are good lake boats, but very sparse and no headroom at all down below.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmm boat is not heeling, pop top up and waterline six inches above the water, hmm.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2011 : 20:19:30

That isn't the Mac 26X/M--it's an older 26D. They're substantially more competent, especially in light air--they're super-light. The 26X/M has the engine in the center and two rudders.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/04/2011 20:32:18

redeye
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Response Posted - 08/05/2011 : 05:34:38

I thought a mac would always beat a catalina, as they are laid up so thin... a much lighter boat.

Add the big engine in the newer model and that might be a different story.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2011 : 06:25:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 I thought a mac would always beat a catalina, as they are laid up so thin... a much lighter boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup--I seem to recall that the 26D and its trailer weighed less than the C-25 alone--maybe even less than the C-250.

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 12:27:43

Another consideration speed-wise, is how much slime is on the bottom. Given a Cat25 and a Mac 26 in the water all the time, I guess it is possible that the Cat25 would have a greater slime build-up given equal bottom paints. The Mac 26s usually have a significantly higher horsepower outboard and while slower than a motorboat would be capable of significantly faster outboard driven speeds that possibly would knock off slime from time to time. Slime on the bottom paint vs relatively clear of slime could account for ~ 1 knot increase.

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TakeFive
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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 12:40:47

Interesting point about slime, and the Mac's ability to slough it off at motoring speeds.

I am seeing more slime buildup this year than I expected - even more than I saw with 3-4 year old stale hard paint that had been improperly stored (dried on the hard every winter). I'll have to try something other than Pettit Vivid next year.

But I'm curious why slime alone slows down the boat so much. I can see how grass or barnacles can slow the boat due to roughness. But slime is pretty smooth, so I'd expect it to add relatively little drag. So what physical mechanism causes the slowness when slime is on the bottom?

Edited by - on

PCP777
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Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 12:46:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 Interesting point about slime, and the Mac's ability to slough it off at motoring speeds.

I am seeing more slime buildup this year than I expected - even more than I saw with 3-4 year old stale hard paint that had been improperly stored (dried on the hard every winter). I'll have to try something other than Pettit Vivid next year.

But I'm curious why slime alone slows down the boat so much. I can see how grass or barnacles can slow the boat due to roughness. But slime is pretty smooth, so I'd expect it to add relatively little drag. So what physical mechanism causes the slowness when slime is on the bottom?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The three Macs that I know on the lake all keep their boats out of the water, two are trailered and one is on a hoist and my hull is definitely "slimed". Whenever I drop the hook i a cove I try my best to brush it off. This after doing a bottom job last year.

I think the slime is uneven and therefore slows you down.

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 12:47:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 Interesting point about slime, and the Mac's ability to slough it off at motoring speeds.

I am seeing more slime buildup this year than I expected - even more than I saw with 3-4 year old stale hard paint that had been improperly stored (dried on the hard every winter). I'll have to try something other than Pettit Vivid next year.

But I'm curious why slime alone slows down the boat so much. I can see how grass or barnacles can slow the boat due to roughness. But slime is pretty smooth, so I'd expect it to add relatively little drag. So what physical mechanism causes the slowness when slime is on the bottom?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The three Macs that I know on the lake (Not the big engine kind, all are like the one in the pic I posted) all keep their boats out of the water, two are trailered and one is on a hoist and my hull is definitely "slimed". Whenever I drop the hook i a cove I try my best to brush it off. This after doing a bottom job last year.

I think the slime is uneven and therefore slows you down.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 14:20:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RythmDoctor
 ...But I'm curious why slime alone slows down the boat so much. ...slime is pretty smooth, so I'd expect it to add relatively little drag. So what physical mechanism causes the slowness when slime is on the bottom?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Maybe--until you put brush marks in it...
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...Whenever I drop the hook i a cove I try my best to brush it off... I think the slime is uneven and therefore slows you down.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Peter: Next time, try one of the dual-biocide paints (with Pettit's Irgarol or Interlux's Biolux). I use WM's PCA Gold, which is Pettit's Ultima 40 with Irgarol, but cheaper--especially on sale in early spring. I generally have a very slight green tinge when she comes out in November, but not what I would call a layer of slime. (She's in salt water.) I think Pettit's Vivid has different anti-slime stuff in it.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/08/2011 14:27:30

GaryB
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USA
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Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 17:39:50

I would guess at near microscopic levels the slime has many "fibers" or "tentacles" that create a large surface area even though they are short thereby slowing the boat down.

Just a WAG and I'm probably way off base.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 17:52:04

Gary, I think you're dead-on.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 19:08:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
...I use WM's PCA Gold, which is Pettit's Ultima 40 with Irgarol, but cheaper--especially on sale in early spring...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
PCA Gold is what I was originally going to use. But I decided to try Petit Vivid first because I had a feeling I would eventually try both, and PCA Gold goes over Vivid much better than putting Vivid over PCA Gold. The boat came with a very stale (3-5 years old) coat of WM BottomShield paint, which is not meant to be kept on the hard.

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 20:23:53

I go with Gary's explanation regarding slime properties. As far as my own experience, I use a multi-year paint with boat in freshwater. I sail my boat over to a marina on the other side of the river and after the 1/2 hour to raise the boat, pressure wash off the slime and sail afterwards, it is generally noticeable regarding the speed increase.

As far as a MAC26 with a larger outboard being able to go at increased speeds and knock off the slime...well, that is only a guess. Not sure just how fast one has to travel to knock off slime buildup but talking to some of the motorboat guys in my marina, they do not bottom paint because the slime does not build-up.

How old are those MAC26s anyway ? Are they not a fairly recent model ? If so, then likely their sails are newer than many that have blown out sails on a CAT25 and that would also explain potential for a MAC 26 to be slightly faster.

Larry

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 06:56:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 How old are those MAC26s anyway ? Are they not a fairly recent model ?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think the one in Peter's picture is from the 1980s. The models with the centered 50hp outboard and twin rudders came in the 90s, and have a very different hull.

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 07:05:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 I go with Gary's explanation regarding slime properties. As far as my own experience, I use a multi-year paint with boat in freshwater. I sail my boat over to a marina on the other side of the river and after the 1/2 hour to raise the boat, pressure wash off the slime and sail afterwards, it is generally noticeable regarding the speed increase.

As far as a MAC26 with a larger outboard being able to go at increased speeds and knock off the slime...well, that is only a guess. Not sure just how fast one has to travel to knock off slime buildup but talking to some of the motorboat guys in my marina, they do not bottom paint because the slime does not build-up.

How old are those MAC26s anyway ? Are they not a fairly recent model ? If so, then likely their sails are newer than many that have blown out sails on a CAT25 and that would also explain potential for a MAC 26 to be slightly faster.

Larry
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not familiar with all the MAC26 variations, the boats I'm talking about, I'm pretty sure, are from this family:

M-26-D 26 7.8 92.6 Cabin sloop, "D" indicating use of a daggerboard
M-26-C 26 7.8 92.6 Cabin sloop, uses a swing keel
M-26-S 26 7.8 94.0 Cabin sloop, "S" indicating use of a swing keel

All three of the boats on our lake have brand new sails. One boat, "Wings", is owned by a guy that works in a boat yard and beats "A" fleet boats scratch. The other two are very competitive as well and the rub is that when we race the C-27 we have to give them time.Good news is is that I bent on my new main on my C-25 on Friday and we also bent on the new 155 on the C-27 Friday as well, so now we have brand new sails when we race the C-27 this Wednesday.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 07:26:16

As Dave pointed out, the Mac 26D and 26 M are completely different creatures. The 26 D, as well as other Macs, such as the 21, aren't fundamentally poor performing boats...they're lightly designed and constructed sailing boats. It's very rare that anyone buys and equips a Mac for racing, so you seldom have an opportunity to see what they are capable of in the hands of a good skipper and crew, with good sails, and good bottom preparation. Quite a few years ago, at Brookville Lake, our local sailboat dealer raced a Mac for a season, (I think it was a 21) and he was very competitive with it. I have always believed that Macs are generally a reasonably decent value for an entry-level cruising boat. They sail well enough to give you an enjoyable sailing experience, but they should be limited in use to small lakes and bays. If your resources are limited, it's a cheap way to get into the sport, but there are much better boats available for more money.

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DaveR
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Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 07:41:33

You're gonna love the way you point minus the blown out main! What a difference it made with my wing keel

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 09:28:22

I recall seeing at least one Venture (MacGregor) 21 one-design fleet somewhere. The V-21 (later the Mac 21) is a light, sleek, quick boat that will run away from a similarly prepared C-22 in small lake conditions. Unlike the 26X/M models, it'll plane without the engine. Some friends had one till they sailed it on the Chesapeake--too scary.

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