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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Non-Ethanol Gas

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jaclasch
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USA
104 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/24/2011 : 18:55:55

After trying everything else suggested on this forum to make my Nissan 9.8 run properly, I did my big test with non-ethanol gas this week. It was extremely enlightening. I brought out three gallons (purchased at the Conoco at 4th and Appleway in Coeur d'Alene) in a new tank and hooked it up.

The results were astounding. It was like having a new, more powerful motor. It started up immediately and did not have to be babied into idling speed. Idling speed was lower with no roughness. Out on the lake it took me up to hull speed effortlessly. Docking, there was no need to keep a little above idle to insure no stopping at a critical moment.

I discussed this with the marina owner and he said there had been a lot of trouble with outboards using E10 gas and had looked into making it available but could not be assured of a regular supply.of E-zero.

The gas is approximately a dollar per gallon higher in price. Prohibitive in cars probably, but well worth it (in my opinion) for outboard motors.

James
1983 FK/TR
Tiempo Dorado

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2011 : 21:06:12

I know you're happy, but E-10 is not the issue. A new tank with no gunk in it probably has a lot to do with it. E-10 has some issues: it doesn't play well with some rubber components, it does play well with water over time if not cared for, and it definitely can loosen crud in old tanks and create its own corrosive crud with water. In the induction system and combustion chamber though, its all the same. In the years since its introduction, to many valid studies have failed to support anecdotal claims. The problem would be widespread if it was a problem with the fuel. Taking the lead out and adding MTBE were also blamed for problems even though lead was only in premium for decades. Sorry, but I had to get it out.

edit: Your new tank probably also included an attached new fuel line, bulb and end fitting that would eliminate any air leaks. Incidentally, there was similar distrust of lead fifty years ago when a similar small contingent always searched out "unleaded" gas, those were probably the same people who claimed that their engines ran better on premium.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 08/25/2011 05:30:02

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2011 : 07:06:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jaclasch
 
.... in a new tank and hooked it up.

The results were astounding. ... It started up immediately and did not have to be babied into idling speed. .....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think Dave's right. This sounds more like fuel line than fuel. But regardless of cause, congratulations on a better running motor.

BTW, I'm on e of those guys that puts gas from the corner gas station in my motor on the way out to the boat in the spring, ignore it, and empty the remainder of the tank into my truck in the fall. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I just don't get the big worry over ethanol and major carburetor issues.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2011 : 08:56:11

You should also plan on taking the carb apart for a good cleaning. I was amazed at the junk in the carb bowl when we did our carb about 2 weeks ago.

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jaclasch
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USA
104 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2011 : 09:52:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 I know you're happy, but E-10 is not the issue. A new tank with no gunk in it probably has a lot to do with it. E-10 has some issues: it doesn't play well with some rubber components, it does play well with water over time if not cared for, and it definitely can loosen crud in old tanks and create its own corrosive crud with water. In the induction system and combustion chamber though, its all the same. In the years since its introduction, to many valid studies have failed to support anecdotal claims. The problem would be widespread if it was a problem with the fuel. Taking the lead out and adding MTBE were also blamed for problems even though lead was only in premium for decades. Sorry, but I had to get it out.

edit: Your new tank probably also included an attached new fuel line, bulb and end fitting that would eliminate any air leaks. Incidentally, there was similar distrust of lead fifty years ago when a similar small contingent always searched out "unleaded" gas, those were probably the same people who claimed that their engines ran better on premium.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What you say is all well and good and very convincing. But consider that the following have been done in the quest for dependable motor operation. In general, I never knew when the motor was going to run like it was supposed to and when it was going to crap around and even quit.

Two seasons ago: Installed Racor water-separator in-line filter
Have tried both Seafoam and Sta-bil fuel stabilizers

Last season: carburetor completely cleaned, new tank, new fuel line. Operation good for awhile but then same old problems.

This season: Tried running carb dry after use and leaving full after use. Seemed to make no difference. Carb cleaned again. Good for awhile but then not. Tried non-ethanol. Everything fine now.

Thank you for your input. Will report back again later this Fall.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2011 : 10:04:19

I have to agree with the others regarding the issue should not be E-10. I do not know how old your outboard is but it would also seem unlikely that Nissan for your year outboard had a history of issues with E-10 but since you tried E-0 and believe that was the only variable that explains the improvement, rcmd do a search on your year Nissan outboard to see if there are widespread E-10 issues with it.

As was mentioned earlier, if E-0 vs E-10 was the main contributing factor with such improved results using E-0, then many that visit the Association's postings would have already documented that this is a widespread issue but that is not the case. My own experience with a 2006 Honda 9.9 is that it runs flawlessly with E-10 gas. The only thing I do regularly is either add Startron or Stable to the portable gas tank. The only time I have had issues and it has happend twice and in one case had somewhat similar symptoms as you initially reported was that under very close inspection of the fuel inlet hose fitting that you attach to the outboard, it had a barely visible crack adjacent to the oring on the face of the fitting when looking into the fitting. After replacing the fitting, my issue went away. I once again had similar issue but I recognized it while the engine was still operating mostly okay and so I bought spare fittings and replaced it again. once again problem solved. So, I know that hairline cracks in the fuel hose inlet fitting to the outboard is one potential bad puppy.

If when you used a new tank, it also had a new hose and new fittings, well then those variables have to also be figured in along with the switch to E-0 as contributing to your outboard running smoothly. So, I would not say it is a slam dunk that E-10 was the culprit regarding poor performance since as the example I gave above, a hairline crack in the hose fitting can result with same symptoms. Perhaps it wold be worth trying to narrow down the list of variables and see what your investigation yields. Interesting ! On the other hand, I guess as long as you resolved your issue, you can go out now with renewed confidence. That's the main thing.

Edited by - OLarryR on 08/25/2011 10:06:59

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2011 : 10:11:00

I agree wiht the others. You mentioned in your response that you bought a new tank and line last year and the motor ran fine for awhile then went back to it's old ways. If that's the case you might be jumping the gun saying E-0 solved your problems this year.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2011 : 14:07:25

The problem with blaming E-10 is that replacing it could not have caused the motor to start <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> up immediately and did not have to be babied into idling speed. Idling speed was lower with no roughness. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> The problem with E-10, as I understand it, is that it causes unnatural build-up of crud in the fuel line. Simply replacing the stuff in the tank could not immediately remove the crap that might have built up in the idle jets, for example. The solvent action of the new fuel could, perhaps, over time but, it could not happen immediately. The "immediately" part of your original comment leads to some kind of obstruction in the fuel line or floating gunk in the tank.

Again, congratulations on your success but, I think you're giving credit to the wrong thing.

Edited by - John Russell on 08/25/2011 14:12:30

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2011 : 22:36:24

I keep a Moeller Clear View Inline Fuel filter on both of my outboards (15 hp on C250 and 50 hp on Trophy 15). Although the filter has helped keep junk from clogging the float valve on the 50 hp, its greatest benefit has been in diagnosing air leaks in the fuel system, which always pop up every few years. I swear by them, even though most motor manufacturers recommend against them.

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2011 : 04:39:20

I'm thinking it could be bad gas that you were using. It's possible that the underground tank where you buy it has leaks/intrusions. I've got a 2 1/2, a 8 and a 50 of various makes and from various years and have no ethanol issues.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2011 : 17:54:26

If your motor is new enough to have fuel lines labeled "achohol resistant" then you are much less likely to have problems with E-10. After having problems clearly related to ethanol in a 1999 Nissan outboard and a 1989 Sea Doo I avoid ethanol contaminated fuel like it's the black plague.

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