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Best angle of Heel

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John Pittman
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/09/2011 : 20:24:38

Today I put in my last solo sail Lake Tahoe befor haul out next weekend..

Winds built to 15-19 mph.

I had my 135 out all the way with a full main.

Sailed close hauled with an average of 20 degrees of heel sometimes 25 occasionally hit 30, in lulls 10 degrees.
Wind was pretty steady though in the afternoon when the clouds moved in for you Tahoe sailors. I know you are lurking.

Speed according to GPS was 5.4 mph knots on average.
I do use an auto pilot and occasionally hand steered, mainly to tack.

I think 20 degrees is the optional angle of heel for the Catalina 25.

What do you all think?

johnnyp

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 07:13:06

There will probably be a lot of disagreement on this one, but I believe that the consensus is that 15 degrees is optimal for performance speed and handling in good wind. Personally I find that 20 degrees is very acceptable when racing and in certain conditions 30+ while not desirable, is sometimes unavoidably dooable for one leg of a short race.

Edited by - Renzo on 10/10/2011 07:15:19

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 07:33:08

I agree Renzo. My wing keel requires more heel (20+ degrees)to get the wings to bite and provide better upwind lift. I used to need winds upward of 15 knots to get enough heel to sail efficiently upwind with my deep keel competitors. Since I added a full-roach main I get the same effect at 12 or 13 knots. Of course racing drives extremes. When cruising it's much more comfortable sailing with a reef in my main at wind speeds above 12+ knots.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 18:26:13

Curtesy of Frank...

Edited by - dlucier on 10/10/2011 18:26:48

two port feet
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 19:38:17

Don that has got to be one of the cleanest 25s out there. But when I've healed over that far I always drop my beer.

Edited by - two port feet on 10/10/2011 19:46:04

John Pittman
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 19:48:17

Thanks for the feedback.
I should have mentioned that l have a wing keel.
I am very interested in the opion that a wing needs more heel, it makes sence.
I would like to here if there any other techniques that are used for std rig wing keels.
In Franks picture what is the angle of heel and how can the tiller be admidship.

And while were on the topic what is the point of no return or capsizing/water going over the coaming.

Edited by - on

Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
129 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 20:23:21

Some food for thought ... The best angle of heal is the minimum you can achieve while maintaining your speed thru the water as this will reduce the side /drift to leeward .
the VMG is the critical item .
With a non bendy rig this often requires main backwinded or reefed or a smaller headsail . .
If you can get your gps set to give vmg to a mark then you often find that the reduction of heal and better hydrodynamics may actually feel slower but get you there quicker.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 20:38:44

Frank's picture, posted by Don above, is not even taken with a level camera--note the shoreline. That boat is heeled as much as 10 degrees further than the picture makes it look, and the big guy in blue isn't helping!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/10/2011 20:39:50

two port feet
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 20:49:52

Not an expert by any means that said, if you heal further then Dons’ photo you loose rudder control and the boat will round up into the wend on it’s own. I prefer to reef, less stress on the boat and me. Mines a SK so all I know about the wing keels is from what there owners have told me.
There hard to steer at slow speed approaching the dock and they have trouble loading the wing on to there trailers.
If you get a chance try Lake Oroville it’s a lot wormer than Lake Tahoe.

Edited by - on

John Pittman
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 21:20:58

Less heel means less wetted surface so reduced drag right.
I am really interested about using the wings" to increase pointing
Seems like you would have to be pretty far over though
The top 3" of Tahoe is pretty warm in august on the east shore in the afternoon.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2011 : 21:38:23

Frank's pic is of "Kansas Twister" in the Lake Cheney Nationals - it was blowing 20-25 knots and Gary was running a full main and a 155% jib (he has a SR).

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 06:41:47

In Frank's picture of Kansas Twister, the boat is heeling at about 48 degrees.

I have a tendency to carry more sail rather than less and compared to other boats on the water, I heel more when close hauled, sometimes considerably more, yet I'm sailing circles around everyone else. I'm not really concerned as much about heel angle as I am about boatspeed and sail trim/helm control. If I'm moving pretty good to weather with the requisite few degrees of weatherhelm, I'm not too concerned about heel angle. If it hits 30+ degrees, so be it, although I do lose a few knots from the winch handle dragging in the water.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 06:54:08

On my boat (SR/FK) we race in whatever is thrown at us. Last season that meant winds in the 35 knots range for 3 races. In one of those races (a windward-leeward) we heeled hard enough that the cabin-top winches were in the water. The cockpit flooded and we were standing in water to our knees. The fuel tank floated up out of the fuel locker, and I had to catch it before it left the boat. When we race I keep the lock on the dumpster, and the bottom hatchboard in.

The boat immediately rounded up, the water drained out of the cockpit in a matter of seconds and the cabin remained dry. My crew (my daughter - age 13 at the time) and I were tethered to teh baot and apart from the initial shock, it was a non-event. We came out of thebroach laughing, and continued with the race. One of our competitors did not fare as well. His Oday Tempest flooded th ecabin and immediately hauled in all sails and returned to the marina.

We finished second in our fleet, beating a number of larger boats. Our sail plan was full main and a 110% jib. By the end of the race we had torn the headboard off the main, and all its slugs (plastic) broke off it. We worked the boat a little hard in the race.

The afternoon race in similar conditions was a medium distance race which we stowed the boom for and ran under jib alone. With just the 110% up, I found it hard to go to windward, however, most of teh race was reaching/running and in the heavy wind were canvassed about right. We barely heeled through the entire race, and finished in first.

The next day was a long distance race which we raced with our older (original) main and the110% jib, again in winds of 30-35 knots as measured by the RC. In that race we heeled far enough that the life ring floated up out of its holder on top of a stanction. Again, the Oday Tempest was forced to abandon when his cockpit was flooding faster than it could drain. Similarly a Tanzer 22 was forced to run to shelter, and we found ourselves racing against baots a fleet ahead of ourselves. We finished in first.

Despite the heavy winds and nutty heel angles, the C-25 really performs its best the flatter it is. I am not afraid to "wash the windows" but I prefer to play the mainsheet and let the front of the mainsail backwind to hold a better course, and get rid of the side-slip. If you have your sail trim right, and you have the right rig for the conditions, it won't take much to hold your course regardless of your angle of heel. I tend to over-canvas in heavy wind, but I find I can get rid of so much extra power with trim that it isn't a big deal. The C-25 is very forgiving in this regard, but she will let you push her if you want.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 08:08:23

This is an interesting topic, and since I enjoy racing, and am able to do OK at it, I thought I would toss my 2 cents into the observations.

The problem with trying to state an optimal angle of heel is that it is a product of a LOT of variables... Since we are talking about Cat 25's, hull shape variables (except for a Cat 25's)are constant and pretty straightforward. More heel angle produces more weather helm forces, since the wetted area is no longer symetric. Those weather helm forces must be corrected for with rudder and draft placement in the sails. Rudder corrections cause drag, which slows the boat. So as the wind comes up sail trim and sail selection become really improtant to minimize rudder corrections (those two areas are not the topic of this thread however).

The photo of Twister is a GREAT shot of a beautiful boat, and she looks to be well sailed with nice sails. However, I think its possibly a very misleading photo if not taken in context. For example, carrying a full main with little to no luff tension (note the luff in the picture) and a 155 which is also not a particularly flat sail) in 20-25 knots of wind, and heeling close to 42 degrees (according to the protractor I used on the picture), and not having ANY rudder deflection being carried is telling me they are in a really dynamic situation, and probably have just been hit with a gust and he is about to start allowing the boat to start feathering up in the gust, especially considering the extreme angle of heel he already has. Either that or he is in a sudden lull, but the heel angle suggests otherwise. There is simply NO way that I think this is a picture of a steady state condition for the boat. My guess is he was clinging to the overpowered condition to be ready for a reaching leg he is about to start. Unless her skipper chimes in here, we will never know, but I sure cannot carry that much sail on a beat "effectively" on Confetti (which is a tall rig fin keel) in those winds. I would have at least one mains'l reef in (which reduces my main to the same as his), and no more than a 130, and probaly just my 110 or a reef in the 130 for the upwind legs. In heavy airs, we usually win races by trying to minimize heel (keep the sails FLAT and shorten sail to keep our non-balanced rudder able to be held with finger pressure not with a big bow in the tiller!).

So the point (and I think the real question) is what is the right steady state angle of heel for the best performance for our hull shape for different wind and sea states?

My experience have shown me that swing and fin keels behave a lot the same as heel increases, with the fin keel being more effective in controlling leeway due to having more "projected" lateral area, and in general less hydrodynamic "lift" being generated due to the cross section being different. No surprises there. However, that also means a fin keel can tolerate slightly more heel than a swing keel, since more heel WILL cause more leeway to be induced by the hull as the chine's angle and the keel's angle increases. A wing keel has less "projected" lateral area when vertical than a fin, but as the heel increases, the upper surface of the keel starts adding to the "projected" lateral area as the "projected" lateral area of the vertical section decreases. The net effect is a slightly increased tolerance to heel by a wing keel, and that seems to be supported by the comments in this thread by wing keel sailors commenting they can sense it "digging in". However, the fin still is more effective again, I suspect simply due to its higher overall "projected" lateral area. I say this only becaue I have never had either a swing keel or a wing keel be able to point with me on a beat when those boats have been carrying similar sails and are being sailed similarly to Confetti.

However, remember the hull shape and the increased weather helm increase with heel angle are still at work. And all the keel designs DO lose laterall effectiveness (albeit at slightly diferent rates) as heel increases.

So, my experiences are that in very light airs, induce about 5 deg of heel to allow gravity to help hold the sails out, and also induce a tiny bit of weather helm (you NEVER want lee helm, even in a drfiter,its SLOW, and in big wind causes cntrol problems!). As the wind increases, keep the boat flat... That projects the most sail area and at low boat speeds has the most projected lateral area by the keel which reduces leeway. A wing keel would probably benefit by allowing about 5-10 deg heel, but no more than that in gentle winds up to around 8 kts.

As the wind (and waves) increase more, I try to keep the heel angle as small as possible, but find the boat is happiest at around 12-15 degrees on a beat and the helm controllable with finger pressure without having to be deflected in a steady state condition. I try to never let her heel more than about 18-20 deg (I can noticeably see the leeway increse as we get up around 20, and dramatically increases above 20 deg. I control the heel by feathering up in the puffs rather than easing the main which helps get us up wind a bit rather than allowing the puffs to cause more leeway.

As the wind comes up and the crew is on the rail, I keep folks OFF the middle of the cabin (see the guy in the shot of Twister and you tell me if his weight is helping to control the heel). We also never allow crew to sit forward of the aft lowers (waves can kill a Cat 25 forward speed), or aft of the forward end of the tiller (that flat stern KILLS speed if you submerge it too much!!)

Controlling heel, and sailing her up and into puffs and playing the waves (whch makes you want to play the sails and backstay tension to power up though steeper wave sets, some folks refer to this as "shifting gears") makes all the difference in the world in sailing effectively up wind at least for us....

OK, so this got up to 5 cents worth, not just 2 cents, sorry for getting carred away!

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 08:34:46

Excellent discussion, Chuck. I agree with everything you said, except about never allowing crew weight forward of the aft lowers. In light air, I move crew weight slightly forward of that location, because it raises the fat stern and reduces wetted surface.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 08:42:08

Note rudder angles

Below note boat on left is standing up a bit better than Kansas Twister, the boat on the left is using the twisted off main method of depowering the top of the main and reducing heel. I use that in very high winds.

Edited by - pastmember on 10/11/2011 08:42:56

pastmember
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Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 08:49:49

My '89 wing, note inside headsail tell tells are luffed up as I feather into the puff. Also note how much leeway I made in the two successive shots.

The guys on the committee boat said I was sliding to leeward a lot as I approached the line.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 09:02:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Excellent discussion, Chuck. I agree with everything you said, except about never allowing crew weight forward of the aft lowers. In light air, I move crew weight slightly forward of that location, because it raises the fat stern and reduces wetted surface.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Steve!

Good catch! Yes, I did not state things completely. I was referring to sailing in waves (which also usually means wind). I used to sail on Galveston Bay which develops a short steep chop, and weight forward in those conditions would literally stop the boat if we were not careful. Here in Florida, when not out in the Atlantic, there is little wave action and we can go forward, and in light air it does help a bit.

Chuck

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 09:13:07

Chuck, I think you just gave away all your candy! Great discussion.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 09:18:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Chuck, I think you just gave away all your candy! Great discussion.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My sincere goal is to have Cat 25's that are being raced everywhere all be up in front!! I think we all have that goal!!!

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 09:35:10

Frank,

In the two successive shots, it's hard to tell how much leeway you were experiencing as the photographer's boat has changed perspective showing a left to right movement on his part. Note the shoreline change in respect to the committee boat.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 10:39:52

Chuck, that was an enjoyable read. Put in a quarter's worth any time you want. That discussion could beneficially be added to tech tips or some other place of prominence and permanence.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 11:42:24

I wonder if Gary Shepherd (owner of "Kansas Twister" in the Nationals) still lurks here and would chime in with his thoughts.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 12:19:31

He now owns a Beneteau 28 Oceana, he still races hi San Juan 21. We had those nationals at Cheney a couple of weeks after the Catalina nationals, I think he took 3rd.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 18:10:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Frank,

In the two successive shots, it's hard to tell how much leeway you were experiencing as the photographer's boat has changed perspective showing a left to right movement on his part. Note the shoreline change in respect to the committee boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I missed that when I looked a the pictures. Good catch!

Edited by - on

John Pittman
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2011 : 19:58:41

Awesome advice, thanks.

Couple of questions:

1. Is twisting off the top of the main achieved by the main sheet or traveler?

2. Can the tactic of powering up using the back-stay be explained in more detail and is depowering in windy conditions just the opposite?

3. If you are back-winding the luff of the main for extended periods of time is this a heads up to reef.

Edited by - on

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