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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/13/2011 : 05:06:31

Friday we took the boat out for the third time. Wind was good and we had a good 2+ hours sailing. We came back toward the harbor and I started the engine and pointed the boat into the wind to lower the mainsail. Gave the tiller to the admiral ask her to keep it pointed into the wind, which she has done in the past. I got up to clip the boom to the aft stay and the boom started to push me over the side. I yelled keep it into the wind and the response was "I can't". I looked at the tiller and she had it in the correct position.(That was a previous lesson for her) I left the engine at idle speed and it was to slow to maintain steerage in the wind. I yelled for her to add power and her response was "HOW". I never told her how to operate the throttle or the gear shift and never told her about the necessary power to maintain steerage. All worked out OK and I stayed dry and we learned another lesson. I sure hope we survive the future lessons as well with no damage to life or limb. Guess that's why some of our friends will not sail with us until we get better at it.
We have to stop telling them the stories of our sailing adventures.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/13/2011 : 07:45:34

What marina are you at?

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 11/13/2011 : 07:49:41

When people that have never sailed come aboard my boat, I tell them that there is one thing on the boat that can kill them. I then grab hold of the boom and dramatically say "this is it!"

Let me suggest that the rat tail or, whatever its called, should never, IMO, be attached to the backstay while the sail is still up. What happened to you (or worse) can easily happen. Lower the sail first. Yes, the boom will land on the cabin top, so lower the sail with control, don't just let go of the halyard. A better alternative to attaching the rat-tail is to use a topping lift. It will support the boom when the sail comes down. This is particularly helpful should you ever need to drop the main in a hurry.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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3467 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2011 : 07:51:19

It is true that the throttle should be increased to maintain steerage but what I believe more important is that the boom not be clipped to the main stay until after the main sail is lowered. There is always a concern if you basically close haul the boom by attaching it to the stay and then have a sudden gust or wind change that may make for a difficult situation while the nain sail is still up. It is far better to rein in the main sheet somewhat but still allowing the boom to swing perhaps 30-40 degrees out from the center of the cockpit. Then lower the main sail allowing the topping lift to hold the boom up. Then once you have the sail secured with ties, etc then clip the boom to the aft stay. In this way you are more in control of the boat's stability.

I mostly sail single handed. I would say at least 80% of the time I do not turn the outboard on. I position myself to at last minute head into the wind, lock my tiller and at same time go slack on my main sheet allowing the boom to swing by as much as 30-40 degrees and uncleat the main halyard from the cockpit. My speed from sailing carries me forward directly into the wind while I scurry myself in front of the mast, facing the mast and pull down the main sail. Then I wrap up the main sail and get two ties on it while I am still on the cabin top. I then secure the main halyard that still has a wrap or two around the winch cabin top near the cockpit. I then put anothe tie on the main sail from the cockpit and secure the boom to the aft stay. I then start the outboard.

The other 20% of the time, I either have my spouse manning the tiller and throttle as you described but with boom free fro 30-40 degree movement or I single hand with throttle on and tiller semi-locked.

I have not bought a tiller lock. What I do and it works mostly okay is that once my head sail has been furled up, I have the excess line to use to hld the tiller in place. The line is cleated on my port side, so I take the excess and put 2-3 turns around the end of the tiller and then I use the cleat on the starboard side of the cockpit to put some wraps around it but not cleat it. That usually holds the tiller secure. Maybe sometime in the future, i wll get a tiller lock. I have had them on past boats but my current method mostly works okay, so I am in no rush to improve tiller locking.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 11/13/2011 : 08:22:05

I consider a wandering boom a potential risk as did you, so I sheet the main in fairly snugly before dropping it; it can easily be released if necessary. Definitely don't clip the pigtail with the sail up; it may be a little unsightly until you get a topping lift, but much safer. I also furl or drop the jib first - a sheeted in main with no headsail will help keep your nose to the wind. I guess you've learned that being sure in advance that the mate knows and can do what needs to be done is much more effective that yelling.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 11/13/2011 08:23:08

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/13/2011 : 08:31:51

Topping lift, I never care about what point of sail I am on to raise or lower the main.

I had a similar event when a sailing buddy of mine took the helm in a 35-40 knot blow, I did not sail far enough into the slips to gain enough protection from the wind and when I hopped up to the cabin top the boat crossed the wind and the boom was a com in' I hopped to the side deck and sat on the cabin top and ducked in one move, she never knew how bad it almost was.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2011 : 09:25:49

Topping lift. There are numerous threads here on the subject--various ways to make it adjustable, etc. It can be set to be just slightly slack with the sail hoisted, and to hold a SR boom at a safe level (if you're under about 6'2") as the sail comes down--all without adjusting at the time.

I didn't use the pigtail--ever. (...at least not after the first time I forgot to release it before I hoisted the main.

)

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/13/2011 : 10:55:05

Still another alternative is a rigid boom vang. It supports the boom always so that you don't have another line to think about when reefing, dousing the main, etc. Garhauer has a nice one designed for the Catalina pop top for around $250. It has been an invaluable piece of equipment on my boat for about 10 years.

Edited by - aeckhart on 11/13/2011 10:55:32

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 04:44:54

"consider a wandering boom a potential risk as did you, so I sheet the main in fairly snugly before dropping it"

Dave, I gave your comment some addl thought after first reading it and acknowledging that having the boom under control is a good thing. But there are different scenarios whereby having a boom with sheets not quite snug makes sense. I thought this may be a good topic to not exactly hijack this thread because it does have to do with boom attachk, etc.

Here's the thing. Under certain circumstances it may be a good idea not to have the main sheet snug. For example, if you have a topping lift...or a rigid boom vang, there is merit to having some slack in the main sheet especially if single hand sailing. First, there is no risk of the boom hitting anyone in the cockpit, because there is no one in the cockpit. The single handed sailer has turned into the wind and has quik footed it to the head of the mast and pulling down the main sail. A snug main sheet could make the job of pulling down the main sail harder if the sail fills with wind. Also, if there is a slight wind shift while the single handed sailer is cabin top, the main sail is less likely to fill with wind and cause the boat to incline if there is some slack in the main sheet allowing the main sail/boom to shift a bit. In single handed sailing, the stability of the boat is the biggest risk and so reducing the chance that the main sail fills with wind is the over-riding factor.

The case could be made that the same is true even with others in the cockpit if there is a topping lift and it is adjusted properly. If everyone remains seated, the boom will not hit anyone even in the slight chance that the boom swings due to a windshift just at the time the main sail is to be pulled down and someone is topside.

When the boat is under power and the main sial is to be pulled down, then I think there is merit to having the main sheet somewhat snug or at least with less slack. First of all, the boat powered by the outboard should be overcoming wind speed so even if there is a slight wind shift, the forward speed will keep the boom centered and the main sheet snug helps control the main and maintaining direction. An example would be when I go under a bridge against the wind and am running my outboard but not lowering my main. My main sheet is somewhat snug. It controls the boom and at a critical time when I may have some addl traffic and between bridge supports. Having a wandering boom in this instance adds risk to maintaining my direction and especially with lines crossing and visibility changing - All things that I would like to avoid when going under a bridge.

If I did not have a topping lift, then snugging the main sheet would be probably the way to go because otherwise there is increased risk of either damage to the boat or if others in the cockpit, then potentially injuring someone if the boom were to suddenly shift.

So, I am curious as to what others have to say about conditions when lowering the main with or without a topping lift, with outboard on or not and do you keep the main sheet snug or allow the boom to move 30-40 degrees as you drop the main..

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/14/2011 04:51:16

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 06:26:27

Lots of good information here. I think I favor the rigid vang. I do not know what a topping lift is. The two previous times we sailed I lowered the mainsail and the boom laid on the bimini and I guess that is OK but I thought that the possibility of it sliding off the side or bending it was something to consider that's why I hooked to the stay first the last time out. We were sailing at a very close reach into the wind to get back to the harbor. I have another thought. I do not have lazy jacks yet but was wondering if they will hold the boom up when lowering the mainsail.

Scott, we are at Eagle Mountain Marina, down by the dam. I think I was told, or heard, you are at Harbor One. We sail during the week as we have a lot of volunteer stuff on the weekends to do.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 07:00:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 So, I am curious as to what others have to say about conditions when lowering the main with or without a topping lift, with outboard on or not and do you keep the main sheet snug or allow the boom to move 30-40 degrees as you drop the main..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Since I drop the main from the cabin top, I prefer not to have any play in the boom as I use it for personal stability while I flake, secure, then cover the main so I have my main sheet well snugged. My usual routine is to bring in the mainsheet with the main still a little loose. I tension the topping lift then cinch the main sheet tight. I now have a main that's still a little loose as the tension is on the topping lift and sheet. I can now go forward using the boom as a handhold and something to lean against. Most of the time, I drop and cover my main while still sailing under head sail firing up the outboard only when I'm about to furl in the genoa at the marina channel buoys.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 07:03:01

When I ask a newbie or non-sailor to steer the boat while I lower or raise sails, I don't expect them to be able to know how to steer the boat without guidance. While I'm working, I pay attention to the orientation of the boat to the wind direction, and, if the boat needs to be brought closer to windward, I ask the newbie to "pull it toward you," or "push it away from you." When it's back on course, I'll say, "Now center the tiller." Those directions are so clear that even newbies can understand them. In that way, the newbie isn't really steering the boat. I'm making the steering decisions, and am using their hands to carry out my decisions. In that manner, you don't have to worry about getting swept overboard by the boom when the newbie steers the boat off the wind.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 07:18:03

One consideration when deciding between a topping lift (line from the end of the boom to the mast-head) and a rigid vang is using the boom as a hand-hold as Don describes. A topping lift supports the boom very well if you lean or fall against it... A rigid vang might not, due to the considerable leverage that could be applied against it.

Another consideration is adjustability... I sometimes used my topping lift to raise the boom a foot or so when at the dock or on the hook. If I'd had a tall rig (which has the boom a foot lower), that would have been even more helpful.

But some folks love their Boomkickers and Garhauer rigid vangs...

Edited by - on

PCP777
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USA
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 07:35:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 One consideration when deciding between a topping lift (line from the end of the boom to the mast-head) and a rigid vang is using the boom as a hand-hold as Don describes. A topping lift supports the boom very well if you lean or fall against it... A rigid vang might not, due to the considerable leverage that could be applied against it.

Another consideration is adjustability... I sometimes used my topping lift to raise the boom a foot or so when at the dock or on the hook. If I'd had a tall rig (which has the boom a foot lower), that would have been even more helpful.

But some folks love their Boomkickers and Garhauer rigid vangs...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm good with my topping lift and it's far less expensive. I might loosen the main sheet to lower the sail but as soon as the sail is down I hammer the traveler over to port and snug the main sheet before I do the final flake, finish putting on the gaskets or put the main cover on.

My friend with the C-27 has a nice rigid vang and it seems pretty substantial, you can lean on it etc and it seems pretty sturdy.

I used my pig stay for the first time in years the other week when I installed a tarp to cover my cabin house. I had to undo the main sheet block to get the tarp to cover as my traveler is over the cabin house.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 07:45:11

It is my opinion that, if single handing and you leave the tiller to douse or reef the main, forward boat movement to windward is essential to retain control of the boat and boom. The main should therefore be eased out until it is luffing but still able to provide forward movement. The advantages to this are several: The boom is off to the side of the cockpit and not a danger to the occupant; the boat is still sailing to windward, but slightly off-wind so that backwinding and accidental jibes are not a problem; There is pressure on the main but light enough so that the auto pilot or tiller tamer, or bungee, or whatever is used to control the tiller, is not overpowered, avoiding a round-up.

I have used a topping lift in the past and found that it does little to contol the boom when the wind is flogging the main. It is also another line to think about when reefing must be done quickly. I have changed to a rigid vang and find that it safely controls the boom in all conditions and I don't have an extra line to set when reefing. It is so efficient that when racing single-handed, I am able to release a reef for down wind runs and reset the reef for a windward tack within seconds without having to worry about being hit in the head by a flogging or jibing boom.

The rigid vang is only one part of a system which allows me to accomplish this. I also have all my halyards and my reefing lines led aft to the cockpit and cleated next to each other. I can therefore release the main halyard and pull in a single reef, or a second reef if needed, at the same time, saving time and thought process.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 07:56:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hewebb
 Scott, we are at Eagle Mountain Marina, down by the dam. I think I was told, or heard, you are at Harbor One. We sail during the week as we have a lot of volunteer stuff on the weekends to do.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm moving to Eagle Mountain Marina. I got a slip on B dock, B58 or so I think. Take a right on B Dock, it's the slip right before the covered's begin. I need to get it rigged with bumpers and lines. It's a 13x30, so a nice upgrade from my 10x20 I'm in now at H1.

My boat is still at Harbor One currently, I just need to get out there and move it. I wanted to this weekend, but other commitments came up along with the 40 MPH winds.....that, and needing a ride back over to H1 to get my Jeep!

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 08:26:19

I also will tighten the main sheet fully but only after I have pulled down my main. There are exceptions. If I had a moderate breeze, well then I may use my outboard to maintain speed into the wind and ease the taking down of the main sail. As far as flaking the sail, I find it more efficient 95% of the time to do that after I get my into the finger slip when I have more time to attend to it. granted, if I were to do that while still outside the marina, then I would have to tighten my main sheet to keep the boom steady while flaking.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 08:26:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> OLarryR First, there is no risk of the boom hitting anyone in the cockpit, because there is no one in the cockpit. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> My little noggin is directly in the line of fire when I let go of the clutch holding the main halyard. I, like many others, never leave the cockpit.

Howard, a topping lift is nothing more than a line from the end of the boom to the top of the mast. Most are adjustable to allow for slack when the main is raised.

A [url="http://www.bargainboatparts.com/p-103033-quik-vang.aspx"]Rigid Vang[/url] is nice, I guess, but for my money, the topping lift wins the day. The one in the picture is just under $1,000. How much did you pay for your boat?

Edited by - John Russell on 11/14/2011 08:42:13

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 09:42:04

Well, there are certainly a hundred ways to do the same thing, and you should use the approach that works best for you in the circumstances. I nearly always start the motor before dropping the main since I will lose headway and need it when the sails are down anyway. I pull the halyard out of the cam on the cabin top either with the tiller locked or steering with my other hand, and the main falls. The sail falls by its own weight with he bow into the wind and a clean and lubricated track. I occasionally do everything, including tidying up the sail, before starting the motor in light conditions, but there is no real point in it. I have a spider rigged on the boom so I can gather up and secure the sail while sitting on the cabin and stow in properly in safer conditions. A rigid vang for some, but a topping lift for me.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 10:38:49

While my halyard winch can be controlled from the cockpit, my main will not drop by itself. I believe that is because of two reasons. First, the slugs are probably not lubricated sufficiently on top 2/3 of mast. My mast stays up all the time - If I were a trailer sailer well then their would be opportunities to silicone spray the whole groove. I do use a silicone spray (believe it is Sail-Kote) on the lower 1/3. (I once saw a way to lubricate the top 2/3 either in Practial sailer or sail magazine by which the can of sail-kote is somehow attached to the halyard with a messenger line to bring it back down.)
The second reason is that although my new sail is about 3 years old now, it is still fairly stiff with few wrinkles as common on my old main sail. That alone will prevent the main from coming down on it's own. However, I am so use to single handed sailing and quickly going before the mast to pull down the main that this happens very quicjly and so I wind up not having to start my outboard until after the main is secured. Even with wind and the narrow Anacostia River where my marina is located (just about 300 ft from the Potomac River), my drift during securing the main is generally not that great and I can accomplish all very efficiently.

As Dave indicated, there are a hundred ways to do the same thing and it's what works best for you. Though, one comment in the postings, I may give a try at it - First slacking off the main, loosening the halyard so the topping lift is supporting the main and then somewhat snugging up the main sheet before taking the main all the way down. I may see what that has to offer.

But these discussions are great. While there are differences on how we accomplish the task, what works best for us, there is also some commonality as to what many of us do or don't do....like not attaching the boom to the aft stay until the main sail is doused. But even then, with no topping lift, I could see why some would do that especially if they also have a bimini in position. Still believe it best to not secure a boom when a wind force could catch hold of the sail. That is definitely a risk with attaching the boom to the aft stay. Controlling the boom via the main sheet still allows for quick release and adjust if needed.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 10:50:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 I have used a topping lift in the past and found that it does little to contol the boom when the wind is flogging the main.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Al,

Does little to control the boom? Using my topping lift and with my mainsheet well hardened, there is essentially zero up and down movement of the boom with very little side-to-side motion, maybe an inch or two. My main could be flogging like mad, but the boom remains relatively still.

Never having had a rigid boom vang, I was wondering. What limits side to side motion when using it?

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 11:00:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...First, the slugs are probably not lubricated sufficiently on top 2/3 of mast. My mast stays up all the time - If I were a trailer sailer well then their would be opportunities to silicone spray the whole groove. I do use a silicone spray (believe it is Sail-Kote) on the lower 1/3. (I once saw a way to lubricate the top 2/3 either in Practial sailer or sail magazine by which the can of sail-kote is somehow attached to the halyard with a messenger line to bring it back down.)...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Why not just spray the lube on the slugs?

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/14/2011 11:00:45

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 11:28:36

Tie a wad of cloth and then a messenger line (1/8 - 3/16) to the halyard shackle. Saturate the cloth with SailKote and wedge into the slot so it is snug but moves freely, and run it up and down. You will need to re-wet and reload the cloth a few times to clean to the masthead. I do it once a month or so.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 11:45:12

Don,

I see what you arre saying. My method is a reefing system: The boom is eased outboard and the sail luffing though still drawing wind; the autopilot is engaged; move forward to the main halyard and reefing lines, etc. The boom is not in the cockpit and is held that way by the luffing sail. The rigid vang keeps the boom from moving up and down. This is my reefing process. The same can be accomplished with a topping lift but it will not prevent up and down movement of the boom. Having the sail flogging like crazing is one thing. Having the sail and the boom flogging around is crazier. The topping lift also requires an additional step - set the topping lift. I do not trust the boom over the cockpit in this situation. It's too easy for the main to be back-winded and cause an accident.

Dropping my main is generally the same but varies according to circumstances. When mooring or anchoring for instance, I don't drop the main at all. I generally sail onto my mooring and drop the main once I'm attached to the mooring or at anchor. If I have crew in a tight situation I'll run the motor then drop the main.

The bottom line is that I never sacrifice forward movement, or the ability to control my boat for the sake of dropping the main or reefing. The boat is always is under control by hand or tiller pilot until the motor is running, I'm attached to my mooring or at anchor, or there's no wind at all and I'm dead in the water.

By the way, the Garhauer vang is a very good piece of "safety" equipment that costs no where near a $1000 and designed specifically for the Catalina 25 w/pop-top.

Edited by - aeckhart on 11/14/2011 12:02:08

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 12:22:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 The rigid vang keeps the boom from moving up and down.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So what keeps the boom from moving side to side?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 12:56:39

I have sprayed each slug but running a cloth up with a messanger line attached...hmmm...good idea ! I will try and remember to do that once my boat comes out of maintenance this winter season !!

Edited by - on

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