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Blister repair from Hell

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OLarryR
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USA
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Initially Posted - 11/14/2011 : 11:02:58

I have held off starting this saga and once it gets into full swing, I plan on documenting the work via photos and narrative. So far, this is the situation. I cannot really do the job easily by myself even if I wanted to and ...well I would rather have it done by a professional...and with that...the costs will be huge. I made arrangements, sailed my boat down the river to a marina that has independent facilities that operate at same location that are capable of doing this work. The marinas up where I keep my sailboat do not have adequate facilities and/or do not allow the boat in the maintenance yard for more than 2-3 weeks and this job will require the blisters to dry out for longer than that period...besides their workers cannot do much more than paint and do similar efforts but not a blister repair. The boat was finally hauled out and pressure washed after a 2 week delay as the contractor was moving boats out of his yard making room for where to place mine for an extended period of time. When the travel lift brought my boat up to the contractor's facility and it was blocked up, the most visible blisters (after opening them up) were assessed as major with many concentrated in the first 3 feet of the bow on both port and starboard sides. There plenty of other blisters on the hull but on first 3 feet of the bow, some are connected to each other and this may require the first layer of laminate to be removed for the first 3ft to the bow. the hull has not had the entire paint down to the gel coat removed yet and that is expected to happen in the next week or so. At marinas, nothing happens to the owner's timetable ! I am awaiting for a full assessment of the entire bottom before deciding on options but I plan to do the jon right and so this will be expensive. I have have some references including another repair guy that I have used that have indicated the contractor is very professional and quite capable of handling this blister repair, though, it is considered a major job. However, I am best to get the details of the work in an estimate on paper and then work toward that fixed cost once agreed upon. So, besides the initial cost, that is my main objective. Hopefully, when they are ready to assess the repair, they can work up the cost and stick to it. I plan to make it clear that I do not have unlimted resources. By the way, if it were a minor blister effort, all work including the 7 coats of waterproofing and anti-fouling paint was going to be around $3500-$4000 plus cost of the waterproofing and anti-fouling paint. One estimate way down river was $8000. So.....I am hoping it is closer to the first number but...it's not a minor job..so we shall see how this works out. The blisters are into the laminate ! The contractor indicates he has not seen a Catalina with blisters this severe. Perhaps that is because the PO and I both left the boat in the water all year round in freshwater which is more prone to hastening blisters and that is then a total of ~ 11 years or so. before that, the history is spotty with boat in the St.Michaels area of the Cheasapeake River.
In any case...it certainly looked a lot better to my eye when getting just the quick once over after annual pressure washing. Now that they started opening the largest blisters to see extent, it is not a pretty sight. maybe I should have just repainted it and let it go for another 4 years with multi-year anti-fouling paint but I did not want to brush this under the carpet. After all, I love my "good old" boat...I'll do what is neceesary and hope to capture it all on my website.
To be continued.....and besides, my daughter is getting married this June...so I am helping the economy big time this year and next !

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/14/2011 11:18:27

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 11:18:47

It may not be as cost effective as selling and buying another boat, but it is the right thing to do. Restoring and maintaining an older boat is rarely cost effective , but it is rewarding. Emotion usually enters the calculation and happiness in the end is what you are really buying. Why do we get so attached to our boats but not our trailers?

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 11:53:33

Take pictures.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 12:07:58

Ouch! When my friend bought his C30, it needed some rather extensive blister work as well and like you, he had it professionally done. Not cheap, but he was happy he had it done.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 13:29:19

Tough stuff, but moving to another boat might not be a viable option... If you don't fix this one, you might not be able to sell her, and if you buy something else, there will likely be some problem with it, too. You can run from boat problems, but you can't hide forever.

Best of luck!

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 14:56:54

<< The blisters are into the laminate ! >>

What does that mean. The Gelcoat is so thin, it is all laminate.

When I got mine done, they basically said.. " yep. It's got blisters... So what, we grind them out and fair them."

I'll probably have it done again in another 25 years.

Best of luck with the job and try not to let it worry you.

It is what it is.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 16:03:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Perhaps that is because the PO and I both left the boat in the water all year round in freshwater which is more prone to hastening blisters and that is then a total of ~ 11 years or so. before that, the history is spotty with boat in the St.Michaels area of the Cheasapeake River.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Larry, Most blister problems that I've ever seen happened to boats that are left in the water for consecutive years. This is why I decided to pull my boat instead of leaving her in the water through the winter. I think that most boats benefit from a drying out period. Fiberglass isn't the perfect material as was once thought and given enough time water will penetrate it. Thats a rough decision with the repair cost so high but I have to agree with Dave, You can't sell the boat in that condition and expect to get much for it.About your daughter getting married, I'd like to say congratulations! I went through it 2 years ago and it will be one of the happiest days you will have but boy it makes the boat look cheap!

Edited by - islander on 11/14/2011 16:09:18

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 16:19:34

I have no intention of selling my boat. Just that if the blisters are bad, it can be very expensive. I also cringe a bit when I hear the contractor explaining to someone about the relatively new Grady White next to me that had a "minor blister" problem as opposed to "this" sailboat (showing mine) that has a "major blister" problem. I hate being used as the bad example. The owner of the Grady White had relatively few blisters but the owner is taking the proactive steps to have his hull waterproofed now to head off future issues. I wish I was in his "boat" ........pun intended ! LOL

It is also the delay that is hard to deal with. The contractor first delayed me two weeks sitting alongside the travel arm while he cleared out some boats when he was supposed to ready to receive me especially because I kept giving latest status for day I was coming and he was to be ready then. Then when he saw condition of my blisters and coincidentally has ben ordered to clean up his ard of derelict boats, he has delayed starting on my boat while he for understandable reasons finished work on the grady White to clear it out from the area adjacent to me before he starts on my boat but also had his workers cutting up 3 boats loading the debris into haul out boxes. Supposedly, works is to start on my boat later this week...then we will see what his full assessment is regarding cost to repair. I already knw my boat won't be ready in two months. It is out for the season and probably won't be put in till March or April...so...I am a landlubber for now. The good and bad news is I guess I might as well resume bicycle riding during this downtime...hopefully lose some weight in the process.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 18:00:53

Larry,

Are you going apply a water barrier?

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 18:31:32

I wonder if somewhere in the boats past someone ground off the factory barrier coat that was supposed to protect the hull from blisters? I've wondered off and on if my barrier coat has been ground off as mine has had a few small blisters over the years when I've pulled it to get the bottom pressure washed.

I always take pictures of the bottom whenever it's pulled and the interesting thing is the blisters are never in the same spot. They seem to move around from one year to the next. When I bought the boat and had it surveyed the largest blister was about the size of a silver dollar. The surveyor punctured it and man did it ever stink! We didn't do anything to it and put the boat back in the water. The next year when I pulled the boat it was gone.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 22:02:03

One way to look at the blister repair work is that the cost is like adding a whole bunch more people to my daughter's wedding.

OJ - Asked: Are you going apply a water barrier?

The contractor is going to open all the blisters, assess how long it will take to dry them out and then after he repairs them, he will put 7 coats of a water barrier paint such as Interprotect on followed by anti-fouling paint.

The Grady White that was put next to my boat already had minor blister repairs accomplished and this past weekend, the workers have so far applied 2-3 coats of the water barrier paint with about 4-5 coats to go during this week. Then when he moves the Grady White out, they are supposed to start work on my boat, hopefully, later this week.

Gary - I was not sure how Catalina prepared the bottom - Is it standard practice for the mfr to apply a barrier coat ? I thought many mfrs skip this step to save dough and rely on their procedures to get the right epoxy/fiberglass/gel coat mixes to ward off blisters for many years.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/14/2011 22:06:05

GaryB
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Response Posted - 11/14/2011 : 23:39:48

I thought I had read somewhere on this forum that the '89's had a factory barrier coat. I could be wrong.

The new 355 just delivered to my marina had what appeared to be a barrier coat on it when it arrived. I walked all around under the boat while it was on stands waiting to be rigged.

Edited by - GaryB on 11/14/2011 23:42:06

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/15/2011 : 04:42:59

My understanding regarding waterproofing the boat is that most contractors/yards will after blister repair work, apply 4 to 7 coats of barrier paint. I doubt the Catalina Yacht or other mfrs websites provide such details as to how many coats of a barrier paint they apply if any. However, one would think that as a marketing thing, they would take advantage of advertising if they do indeed put any barrier paint on and so....perhaps if I remember, I will make a check of Catalina and perhaps Hunter just to see if there is any mention of a barrier coat that is applied. I do recall that when I purchased a new 1980 ODay 23, it did not have any barrier paint applied and I was not knowledgeable about even considering applying one back then. They just put anti-fouling paint on and I was on my way. I had that boat for 5 years and no issues...but that was only the first 5 years of it's life and the boat was pulled out of the Huntington Harbor, Long Island every year which also minimized water time/osmosis effects.

By the way, I recently contacted Catalina Yachts to see if they support replacement of rudders for our boats (1989). I also wanted to know their opinion of the HDPE rudders being sold via Catalina Direct/IdaSailor since there have been some reported snapping in two of these rudders. Though, I indicated that the deficiencies reported may be a very small percentage versus all the HDPE rudders sold. In any case, I mentioned that I recall them helping me out in the past supplying me a port/window exact replacement and so...what about rudders because I was interested in an OEM rudder based on the fact that my rudder has lasted fine for 22 years and so that's what I want for a replacement. Catalina tech support forwarded my EMail to their Parts Dept. The Parts Dept did not comment on the HDPE rudders but did indicate that they have our rudder in stock. Just indicated it was a foam core encapsulated in fiberglass. Did not actually say it was identical to the rudder supplied back in 1989 but sounds like it probably is of same construction. I have the info at home but I believe they were selling it without the pintles for about $750. I was considering replacing the rudder because I recall that the PO had a survey when he bought the boat and the surveyor indcated the rudder had indications of moisture within it. It has lasted fine all these years but...well rather than have the contractor do anything regarding repair/waterproofing, I wanted to consdier replacing the rudder. Anyway....this now a bit off topic from the hull blister repair but the rudder has been in the water all these years as well. Since you have same year Cat, thought I would share this info. We all should remember that some items, catalina Yachts still supports replacement parts. Not for windoes/ports with the aluminum channels but they will make up the windows with Lexan (cut to a template you porvide) so that it is an exact match. I have not installed the window they provided me two years ago because the crack in my one window has held up fine with a bead of 3M sealant. So, I have held off that repair. But I am strongly considering replacing the rudder...I still have some questions for them before I do replace it and I want to square away the blister repair cost first before going ahead with the rudder replacement. I suspect the rudder they supply would have to have the holes drilled - That's one of my questions that I am awaiting a reply. I do recall someone else recently provifing details of a rudeer that was replaced and made up similar to the way the OEM made the the rudders but I have not seen much in the forums as to whether that company was actively marketing the rudders after they made up his as a prototype. So...without some sort of history with addl rudders being made up and people satisfied, I am reluctant to be the second guy to go that route and paying full price for that privilege. My thought is I would consider catalina Yachts first and then perhaps a tie between what was mentioned in the forums regarding the mfr that made up the prototype vs what catalina Direct is selling which is mostly the IdaSailor HDPE rudders.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/15/2011 04:51:39

Renzo
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Response Posted - 11/15/2011 : 07:59:05

Larry I had a similar extensive blistering problem five years after I bought my boat. I had purchaced it new so I couldn't blame the problem on the PO but I believe that it was caused by a combination of leaving the boat in fresh water for three consecutive years and the fact that the hull was manufactured in'84, when there was a change in the formulation of resins because of the oil shortage. After getting coastly bids for the work I decided to do it myself and spent the spring and most of the summer grinding off most of the gel coat adding and sanding fairing compound and then applying 7 coats of Interlux 1000 and five coats of Interlux 2000 followed by 2 coats of bottom paint. A lot of work but worth it I guess because the hull has only had the ocasional blister since then(20+ yrs).Also I stopped leaving the boat in the water over the winter and I'm sure that has helped. Good luck whichever way you go.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 11/15/2011 : 08:15:55

I went the system 2000 route many years ago and the current owner has had no recurrence of blisters. But the boat is on the hard 6 months a year . . .

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/15/2011 : 12:50:27

My area is peculiar in that my 300 slip marina has no real services except for visiting mechanics. The Washington sailing Marina across the river on the VA side actually has a longer waiting list to keep your boat on land compared to keeping it in the water. I could annually travel down the river to the Fort washingtom Marina where my boat is presently and this has been my forst experience with my boat up on blocks for an extended period of time....I may consider doing that some years. But I do manage to sail year-round. I may consider taking a break which would be good for the boat and perhaps for myslef as well.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 11/16/2011 : 14:48:14

Larry,m

You mentioned in another post that you had passed through some thin ice a few times getting into and out of your marina in the winter. Do you think there's any chance it might have done unnoticeable damage to the gelcoat which allowed water to migrate into the substrate and cause the damage you mentioned.

The fact that most of the blisters are near the front and the marina had never seen a Catalina with as many blisters as yours makes me wonder.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/16/2011 : 15:47:21

Gary,

Good thought...but the ice was above the areas where my blisters appear. Also, the soft anti-fouling paint was surprisingly free of any scrapes/marks. While the thin ice made a lot of noise as I passed through it, the ice could not have been more than 1/16" - 1/8" thick. The noise was not so much from the hull passing through it as it was from the ice breaking up and planes of ice fracturing a few feet away from the slight ripples caused from the boat moving through the water.

I'm waiting for them to start removing the paint to then take photos that show full extent of the blisters. Right now, the worst blisters were intially opened up but most of the paint is still on the hull bottom. The Grady White next to my boat is supposed to be moved in the next day or two as they are just about completed working on it. Then work is supposed to start on my boat. I have heard that before...so we shall see. I plan to go down one day this weekend and will either perform outboard maintenance...or maybe do a once over on the interior wood with Harvard's Restore/Feed-n-Wax products.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/16/2011 15:49:54

OJ
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Response Posted - 11/16/2011 : 16:13:03

Larry,

How is the marina going to remove the bottom paint?

Would love to see your pix . . . especially if the blisters turn out to be as severe as you describe.

Thanks again for sharing!

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 11/16/2011 : 17:27:31

Blisters - uh huh, seen em, ground em out and faired with epoxy. So what? Grind every one out until they no longer weep. Let sit for a day or two and fair the hull. Sand, game over. Barrier coat is way to expensive for a C25. Look at it this way, there is simply no reported failures due to osmosis alone. Sail the boat the way it is until the water starts coming thru, but seriously, Google "Osmosis hull failure." Nothing... That been said, it does look ugly and you do want to fix it. Home Depot sells the little grinding wheel attachment 1.5 inches max and go to town. You might actually beef up your hull

, but do not be scared into paying a bunch of money for this job. This is unskilled labor at best. If you can spackle the hole left by the painting you just took down, you can do this.

sten

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 09:26:30

It's your money and boat to do with as you please....personally, there's no way I would spend $8k on a bottom job....or ANY maintenance job on my boat. As much as I love my boat, I'm not going to allow emotion to obscure monetary value. Considering what I initially paid for the boat and what the max value in "perfect" condition would be, I only have around $5k to spend before I get into throwing good money after bad.

I do need a bottom job, and knew that when I purchased the boat. I had it hauled for inspection and luckily, no blisters...after the lawn was mowed. It needs a bottom job and the keel was pretty rusty...no smile.....$1800 for everything: bottom job and keel work.

So I had them put her back in the water, and eventually I'll get to the bottom job "maybe". It's not keeping me from enjoying her and I'm not concerned about winning any races.

All that aside though, I do look forward to reading your progress and seeing pictures of the work as it goes along!

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 11:58:25

There are a number of reasons why I do not want to do the job myself. For starters, I remember the good ole' days when I scraped off the barnacles and sanded down the hull of my ODay 23 and no matter what way the wind was blowing, when I cleared my nose, my handkerchief always came out blue.

I have read many articles on blisters and agree that in most cases it is mostly a cosmetic issue. But there are many blisters, more than I originally thought and toward the bow, they are connected to each other and definitely go into the laminate. I have heard of some that let the blisters dry for a few days and then repair them and in fact when I had my hull painted several years ago with a multi-year paint, the local marina also repaired a few of the bigger blisters in just that way. But there are many more blisters I spotted this Spring and then when they started grinding some now that the boat is out, some are fairly deep. I am not prepared to perform maintenance on all these blisters and even though I am fairly handy, I doubt that I would do a good job contouring the repair to the hull.

I am still waiting for the assessment and granted it does not make sense to many (including myself (if I think about it too much) to spend gobs of dough to fix the boat professionally...and once they begin, I then have the expectation that it will be handled professionally and will have to monitor the work to see if that is indeed the case, though, other repair jobs I have seen there have been done professionally...in my opinion.

Right now, even though I have my daughter's wedding coming up this Spring, I happen to be in pretty good shape to have the work performed by the shop...but my spouse indicates that paying for my toys is one reason she does not want me to retire yet and at earliest...in about 5 years when I am 67...
at earliest.
So...I do not want to spend the time doing the work myself for environmental/health and labor hour reasons. I do not want to sell the boat and in present condition the bottom is a turn off compared to all the great improvements I have made to my boat. I also support my "Good Old" boat and want to keep it in good condition if not great.

Let's see, after this job is done and I may get a new rudder as well, the sails are relatively new, the outboard is not that old, I then have the standing rigging as last major job (some time in the future) and I have basically a new boat ? Even new boats have issues...and especially those that are just off their warranty periods...I think we heard of one..A Hunter where the mfr did not want to do the blister repairs on a relatively new boat. Anyone recall that posting...believe it was during last 6 - 9 mos or so ?

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/17/2011 12:04:56

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 16:18:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 There are a number of reasons why I do not want to do the job myself. For starters, I remember the good ole' days when I scraped off the barnacles and sanded down the hull of my ODay 23 and no matter what way the wind was blowing, when I cleared my nose, my handkerchief always came out blue....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm not trying to talk Larry into doing this himself, but for others who are interested, I found a surprisingly effective, inexpensive DIY solution. I already had a 5 gallon Shop Vac, so I bought [url="http://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarter-sheet-orbital-hand-sander-40070.html"]this inexpensive palm sander[/url] from Harbor Freight, along with a 4' flexible pool filter hose with rubber tips (from a pool supply store). The flexible hose was a perfect fit at both ends for the sander's vacuum port and for the stiff wand at the end of the Shop Vac. It provided a lightweight, flexible connection that allowed me to lie under the boat and hold the sander over my head without dust coming down in my face.

I started with full Tyvek suit and high quality 3M dust respirator. But after the first hour or so both the suit and the dust mask were still perfectly white, so I removed them for comfort. It was a chilly day and I had a runny nose, so lots of opportunity to inspect the kleenex, and there was NOTHING. So the extra PPE was unnecessary because I had a well-engineered solution (per the spirit of OSHA standards).

A few other tricks:
<ul>
<li>There was a very tiny amount of dust that came out of the Shop Vac (easily removed from the top of the vacuum canister with a rag), and I had to open it up every hour or so and use a paint stick to knock some of the cake off the filter bag (which increased the flow substantially).</li><li>High quality purple 3M paper was much more durable than the cheap stuff that came with the sander, so I used the paper as a template to cut the 3M paper to size and punch ventilation holes in it at the proper spots to match the sander's vent holes.</li><li>I also used a household glue stick to better adhere the paper to the sander.</li><li>I had a computer power strip with master sensor (turns on accessories when the master device is on). I set this with the sander as the master device and plugged the Shop Vac into the accessory port. This way, the Shop Vac would turn on/off automatically with the sander. However, I always waited a few seconds before turning off the sander, to prevent dust from settling in the lines.</li><li>I put a tarp under the boat to collect any paint chips that I knocked off the boat, per EPA requirements for commercial boat yards.</li><li>I did wear ear plugs to alleviate the damaging noise from the Shop Vac, and heavy rubber gloves.</li></ul>
Try this at your own risk. I have not monitored the emissions for EPA or OSHA compliance. But for my boat's paint and my DIY friendly private boat yard, this was a very acceptable solution.

<center>

</center>

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/17/2011 21:04:59

GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/09/2012 : 21:03:34

Larry,

Any update on the blister repairs? Any pictures of the work done so far?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 01/09/2012 : 21:49:40

Gary - Thanks for asking ! No new status !

I have been biding my time with some maintenance/improvement projects and latest is that they may get to open the rest of the blisters and assess the cost of the job this next week. But I have heard that story before.

First, when the effort was deemed a major vs minor blister job, efforts were put on other boats surrounding my boat to basically clear them out of the way. Then when that was done, the marina inspected his work areas and indicated he had to get rid of derelict boats and do a general cleanup. This was followed by a county inspection that also told him he had to clean up his maintenance bldg as well. So, for the past month or so, he has had his workers working on clean-up efforts and boatwork has basically been put on Hold. Then after what appears to have survived the county inspection with continued progress toward cleaning up the building and appeased the marina operators, he now just got thru meeting with the marina consortium that leases the bulding to him and apparently he has verbal okay for cleaning up efforts from them as well. The contractor is hoping to resume boat work next week and that's when the remaining blisters will be opened up. Then he will probably wait a month or more to allow the remaining blisters to dry out but the biggest ones were opened back in November.

I am of course anxious to get this work progressing but I was already prepared for keeping the boat out all winter. Once all the blisters are opened up, then I suspect no work will progress till end of February/beggining of March. I have seen his guys work on other boats and my thought is that once the repair work begins at end fo winter, then the waterproofing coats and anti-fouling paint will go on rather quickly...probably within a 2 week period in March.

I may start loading the photos I have taken to date onto my website next week but I was waiting to take addl photos of the rest of the hull when it's taken down to parade rest.

No doubt I have been annoyed with the delays up to now ! I have lost quite a few sailing days since end of October but...taking a break for one winter out 5-6 of them isn't bad. It's a nice change and I was able to perform all outboard maintenance including replacing the water pump impeller which was something I had not done before. My 2006 Honda was installed on the bracket mount in Jan/Feb 2006 and has neven been off the mounts in all this time !! I have managed to perform all mtn with it on it's outboard bracket.

Larry

Edited by - OLarryR on 01/10/2012 04:40:06

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 01/10/2012 : 05:09:42

I have blown more money on boats and repairs that may or may not have been worth it -- however I am sure it all has been less expensive than upgrading. At my age and with so little "free" time I would not want to tackle a bottom job and would opt for doing what you are -- find the most reasonable yard and put up with the scheduling glitches, etc. The real issue here is peace of mind and trusting that your boat is in good condition and you are happy with her -- sounds like when all is done, no matter how light your wallet may feel you will have a boat to be proud of!

Edited by - on

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