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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/27/2012 : 06:14:53

I took apart the Lewmar winches yesterday and found that they were dry. I cleaned them up, inspected them, re lubed them and put back together. I was wondering how often that should be done and decided to order covers for all four of them. Doug provided the special grease for them. They seem to be very well made. They were much easier to service than I thought they would be.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 07:34:28

I hope you did not grease the pawls, the grease is for the drum, you should only oil the pawls. Grease traps dirt which will build up and make the pawls fail. The Lewmar "kit" comes with grease and oil.

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 08:19:27

Frank's right.. grease the drum and oil the pawls.
Once a year is about right for average use.
Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Phredde
Navigator

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125 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 19:37:38

OK, you may not want to go by me, as I'd much rather be sailing than doing maintenance. But when I bought Phredde ~15 years ago, the winches were frozen. I replaced the pawls and lubed them back up then. They have been in a salt water marine evironment ever since and the most they get is a good fresh water spray after a day on the bay. They still work great.

But one piece of advice, if you are pulling them apart near water, use the box with a hole cut out trick, and/or have plenty of spares, because those little pieces seem to be magnetically attracted to water.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
468 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 23:33:01

Just a word of caution to anyone who has older Lewmars like the ones that were on my boat. I don't know if they were original equipment, but they were Lewmar 16 self-tailers. To service them it was necessary to pop the top cap off - it was just a press fit onto the inner core. Unfortunately, the aluminum of the caps seized to the bronze cores and they won't come off. I wrote to Lewmar for advice, but the response I got back was disappointing (and unsympathetic). Evidently the PO's of this boat did NOT take them apart regularly for maintenance, and now they're unusable. I'll be replacing them very soon, but I doubt I'll be buying Lewmars.

http://panza.smugmug.com/MYSAILBOAT/The-Boat-Renovation/Overhauling-the-winches/20212242_PdJBGt#!i=1601094553&k=SfPbJ93

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2012 : 04:59:03

I can understand frustration over the seizing of the Lewmar Winch making it unseviceable at this point. However, myself not having this issue and therefore not really studying the different mfrs internal configurations, you indicate you most likely will not be replacing with another Lewmar winch but no details provided if other winch mfrs have superior internal configurations or they are sometimes prone to deficiencies as well. By the way, I do not recall or at least my perception s that very few have had issues with their Lewmar winches. I could be wrong. Anyway, perhaps it would be instructive for those that have researched winch configurations from various mfrs and perhaps were able to determine reliability amongst them, if one is superior to another. Winches are extremely expensive to replace and a moving part that is used virtually everytime one goes out sailing. Given mine are now 22+ years old and work fine, I am satisfied with them. However, if I had to replace even after all the years they have been in service, I guess I would also be bummed out. Just that...how do they stack up against other mfrs winches and what if a PO also did not maintain them...maybe they would suffer similar deficiencies ? Anyone know if some winches are....maintenance free ? I doubt it.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2012 : 06:45:55

Lewmar must have changed the design on the 16ST's at least on the top cap. Mine is held with four screws and was very easy to disassemble, No prying involved. 25yrs old and still cranking.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2012 : 07:07:52

I also went to Lewmar recently for a little information and was not impressed with their assistance, but their winches are ruggedly built and will tolerate terrible neglect, but if they're neglected badly enough, they can be ruined. I neglected mine on my C25 for a long time, because I didn't know how to dismantle them, and after I finally cleaned and lubed them, they were good as new. I am currently replacing my old Barient winches with a pair of used Lewmars. In spite of their lackluster customer service, they make a very good winch.

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2012 : 07:11:12

Used 3 in 1 oil on the pawls. Grease on the bearings and gears.

I found the directions on the internet

Howard

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2012 : 08:14:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lee Panza
 Just a word of caution... Unfortunately, the aluminum of the caps seized to the bronze cores and they won't come off...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Lee: Have you tried giving them a long soak in a penetrating oil like WD-40, PB Blaster, or Liquid Wrench? Car restoration guys like [url="http://www.kanolabs.com/google/"]Kano Kroil[/url]. As a last resort, if there are no plastic parts involved, try thinning one of those with acetone and let it soak some more. It seems worth a try before you throw out a $1200 set of self-tailers.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/28/2012 08:24:50

blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2012 : 11:23:33

Lee, i just found this today, it's good site with many different repair topics, and they happened to have a tutorial on how to disassemble your winches, turns out te top is screwed in there! check it out

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/winch_clean_and_grease

Edited by - on

Arlington
Navigator

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USA
196 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2012 : 21:32:08

I can second Stinkpotter's recommendation for Kroil. I have used it when nothing else could get a part to budge, just be sure and give it time to work. I pay $15 at my local Ace Hardware Store for one can, so the offer Stinkpotter found for 2 cans with shipping for $18 looks pretty good. BTW contrary to Lewmar, Kroil has good customer service.

(I have no interest in this product)
Doug

Edited by - on

blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2012 : 22:19:08

yes but in Lee's case it's got little to do with stuck pieces, he's trying to pry it off when it has to be unscrewed counterclockwise (albeit with a rubber hammer but according to the tutorial it's supposed to come off quite easily)

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
468 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2012 : 03:14:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blanik
 ...in Lee's case it's got little to do with stuck pieces, he's trying to pry it off when it has to be unscrewed counterclockwise (albeit with a rubber hammer but according to the tutorial it's supposed to come off quite easily)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks very much, Richard. I'll give this a try. Yes, I had soaked it in a penetrating oil, and I had applied a lot of force after that. But the Lewmar rep had not said anything about it unscrewing. He had told me:

"Take a piece of wood and put it under the feeder arm, the arm that hand (sic) down over the side of the top of the winch. Take a hammer and tap at the underside of the wood and the cap will just come off." In fact, when I wrote back asking if there was anything else I should be concerned about, he replied: "No it should just pop up and off." After applying a LOT of force I wrote back, describing what I had done and referring him back to the pictures I had taken, and the rep simply told me that if the winches hadn't been serviced in a long time, "I am afraid that I do not have any further suggestions in regards to the removal of the feeder arm/upper crown assembly."

Looking at the pictures on the Compass Marine website I see that there's more to it than that. I'll try unscrewing them next weekend.

BTW, I had explored that website awhile back, and there's a lot of good information there, and a lot of beautiful pictures of sailing, especially in Maine. The article about the winches was posted just over a year ago - subsequent to my having seen the site - so I'm grateful that you pointed me to it. Thanks again, Richard!

Edited by - Lee Panza on 03/05/2012 04:26:35

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2012 : 12:10:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blanik
 yes but in Lee's case it's got little to do with stuck pieces,...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup. "When all else fails, read the documentation."

Edited by - on

blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2012 : 13:05:16

looking at Lee's torching and sledge-hammering bars in the winch, it's quite a statement at Lewmar's quality of manufacturing... o.O

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
468 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2012 : 20:23:28

HALLILUIAH!!!

I've finally recovered enough to go downstairs and try tapping SIDEWAYS on those winches. And whaddya know - they DO unSCREW!

Yes, they are, indeed, solidly made, and once they're all cleaned up they'll probably last indefinitely (with periodic servicing).

So score a big plus for Lewmar, but a big MINUS for their rep who gave out erroneous and useless advice. And a big THANK YOU to 'blanik' for spotting that website and directing me to it.

This forum just saved me close to $2K. We Cat-25 owners sure are fortunate to have such an active support group!

Edited by - on

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2012 : 02:30:57

Lee, very nice CAD drawings on your website!

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2012 : 16:24:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This forum just saved me close to $2K.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No, I think Blanick did and I'm sure you will be receiving his bill shortly...

Edited by - on

Sam001
Vice Commodore

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USA
441 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2012 : 18:41:02

I agree that this group is great!

Edited by - on

blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2012 : 18:43:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This forum just saved me close to $2K.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No, I think Blanick did and I'm sure you will be receiving his bill shortly...

Edited by - on

Sam001
Vice Commodore

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USA
441 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2012 : 13:16:54

What model of the self tailing winches do your reccommnd for the 25?

Edited by - on

Sam001
Vice Commodore

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USA
441 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2012 : 13:17:50

winches are on the list for refit....

Edited by - Sam001 on 03/21/2012 13:18:06

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
468 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2012 : 21:50:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blanik
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This forum just saved me close to $2K.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No, I think Blanick did and I'm sure you will be receiving his bill shortly...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

haha no, he just owes me a beer but since there's very little chance of me going to Cal and i owe one to you, then you can go to California and collect Lee directly ;-)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You'll get that beer, Richard, but probably not for about ten years. Champlain is one of the places I'm looking forward to sailing, but not until I've hit a few other places; and none of that starts until I can retire +/- 5 years from now. Scott, you'll probably get to collect on this sooner, 'cause going back to LI is near the top of my dream list. I grew up in Huntington and went out on the Bay often with my cousins. Spent some time wandering the forks too, but landside only, so now I'm dreaming of sailing around Shelter Is. and the Peconics. Long Island will be one entire summer. But that'll be after the summer I spend in the Gulf Islands and the Str. of Georgia. And Henk (zeil) and Chris (Prospector) have got me fired up about Georgia Bay, North Channel and the T-S Waterway. Too many places to go sailing, not enough life left. Anyway, that's why I'm outfitting this C-25. So you guys'll have to be patient, but that beer will be good and cold when it's finally delivered!

BTW, Sam; I'll pass along my thoughts - on what I expected I was going to have to buy - tomorrow night.

Edited by - Lee Panza on 03/22/2012 22:24:45

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
468 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2012 : 09:56:25

Sam;

You asked for recommendations RE: winches for our Cat-25's; as with everything else that we share on this forum there are widely divergent opinions, and if you search the archives you'll find them. But I'll toss into the mix what I found when I realized I was going to have to shell out a hefty number of Boat Units for something I had just taken for granted.

First, there's a strong difference of opinions over whether self-tailers are necessary (we also had a thread recently about the effectiveness of those rubber add-ons called "winchers"). You've already decided on self-tailers, and I personally agree with that for the primaries; some of us have remounted the halyard winch onto the cabintop, and I'm satisfied with a non-tailer for that.

The big divide over self-tailers is whether single-speed winches are sufficient for our purposes. I'm hoping I'll remain satisfied with the singles I have, even after having convinced myself that I needed to spring for the additional cost of two-speeders. But that's a point that others here might want to advise you on.

Here's what I found out about a few models of 2-speed ST winches sized appropriately for a Cat-25 (bear in mind that I'm a Civl Engineer, not a Mechanical Engineer).

First, the best value right now here in the USA seems to be the Lewmar Evo 30ST. Mauri Pro had them for $749, and it would only have cost another $13 each to ship them to me here on the West Coast. I haven't had a chance to disassemble them myself to decide whether the add'l. $128 ea. was worth spending for the Oceans, but the Evo's are nicely made. I suspect the price differential has more to do with the sourcing of components (read here "imported") than the design: if Lewmar has joined the move to Chinese manufacturing (and I don't know it that's so or not) they might have decided on a whole new design to incorporate other "improvements" at the same time. Whatever, the Evos seem quite adequate, and the Oceans must be better.

The Antals look nice, and they have a nice feature on the drums: the friction is provided by many shallow ridges and grooves, allowing each coil to slide up as you crank until they're stripped-off at the top. Less wear on the sheets but good traction. Inside (their website shows an exploded view) they have a lot more parts than the Lewmars. The base is a two-part assembly machined out of aluminum instead of bronze, and the central core is a separate stainless steel assembly that slides into that. The drum, of course, rides on the core, and it just looks to me like a design that's more suseptible to wear over time than the Lewmars. The Lewmars also seem a lot easier to service. Antal's W16.2 is almost $30 more than the Ocean 30ST at Mauri Pro as of this writing.

Anderson is known for their stainless steel winches, although not all of their models are "Full Stainless." Their drums use a series of slightly raised, rounded ridges for the same purpose as the ridged drums of the Antals. I'd have to defer to someone who has used them for an opinion on how well that works, but there are other winches using the same idea. The 28 ST is the smallest 2-speed. Their website is currently not linking properly to their manuals, so I haven't seen the interior design of the current models, but the earlier model 28ST is a very basic design. The pawls appear smaller than the Lewmars and Antals, and there's just a single race of bearings. They don't seem as well engineered, so I'd have trouble rationalizing the add'l. cost at about $1,200 each, although I haven't seen the design of the current models.

Harken Radials use a set of shallow rounded ridges that are inclined forward to drag the sheet in the direction it's being pulled as it slides up the drum. Might help. The hold-down studs lock in place so the winches can be installed by one person - an appealing feature. They "feature" composite (rather than metal) bases and tops (and detatchable central cores that also appear to be composite) as well as composite bearings, which they say "...reduce friction under load and don't require lubrication." I'll leave it to you whether you believe they'll hold up over time as well as stainless steel, or whether that base and core structure is as strong as the solid bronze Lewmars. At $1,062 each the chromed-bronze drum #35's (or the aluminum drum #35's at $969) seem over-priced, but they're a bargain compared to the solid metal #32's at $1,514.

I didn't get any farther than that in checking out what's currently available. I had a prejudice against Lewmar from my limited first-hand experience (and it turns out to have been unfounded anyway), but at this point I would unquestionably recommend them. You might want to go into a dealer and ask them to open-up both an Evo 30ST and an Ocean 30ST, to see if there's a discernable difference between them, but barring that I think the Evo's are probably the best value available right now.

BTW, I didn't get into comparing the mechanical advantages of the various models, but there's some confusion in this regard. The actual mechanical advantage of an ungeared winch would be just a function of the drum size verses the length of the handle. Single-geared winches turn the drum less than one rotation per rotation of the handle (increasing the power advantage), and two-speeders have multiple gear ratios. Putting it all together gets complicated, but the length of the handle is an important factor that isn't included in the manufacturer's figures and it's a relatively inexpensive one to address yourself. The difference in gearing between one manufacturer's line and another's is probably unimportant unless you're racing upwind on a narrow course in heavy winds and having to tack frequently. The difference between single gears and doubles is far greater than the difference from any one manufacturer to another. And even at that, I wonder if two-speeders are really necessary for our boats. I'll leave that to others for now, although if anyone argues persuasively that singles are truly inadequate I might be swayed.

If that's the case, Richard and Scott won't get those beers (and I might have to forego a few myself for awhile as well, unless someone makes me an attractive offer on a pair of freshly-serviced 16ST's).

So, FWIW, there's my two-cents. YAMMV. Good luck with your own choice, Sam.

Edited by - Lee Panza on 03/23/2012 10:19:38

blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2012 : 10:50:22

i almost never use the winch handle, just arm strength is sufficient for my 135 genoa, the few times i've used it was to fine tune the genoa with a strong close hauled wind

i had old winchers on my winches, i removed them (almost no grip left in them), if i where to need new winches for a C25 i'd go with the cheapest single speed ones and put a cam-cleat where the line exits the winch and call it a boat :-)

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