Association Forum - another new rudder question :-/ **UPDATE**

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

another new rudder question :-/ **UPDATE**

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

blanik
Navigator

Member Avatar

Canada
210 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/03/2012 : 09:59:09

sorry to flog a dead horse here but i'm about to buy a new balanced rudder, i've gone through all the past treads about this and it gets more confusing,

so far there's Catalina Direct, IDA rudders, Foss (FL), Foss (CA)

i'm not really interested in a HDPE rudder, i still prefer fiberglass and foam and i need new pintles (but not the tiller) installed at the factory on it (does that eliminate any company from the start?)

when i look at their website all their rudders are balanced but don't look exactly the same, might just be the pictures, do they all use the exact same design?

as anyone of you seen rudders from different manufacturers? which one seemed the strongest/best built?

so far IDA and CD seem more user friendly (pintles installed with my measurements)

there seems to be a lot of stories of new rudders cracking and all, are they all from the same company (you can private message me if there are thing that can't be said in public :-/)

thanks

1984 C25 FK/SR #4593
Lake Champlain

Edited by - blanik on 03/08/2012 23:03:17

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 10:11:20

I can't answer as to which rudder is the best but I'm not sure they will install the pintles for you. Without them knowing the exact placement of your gurdions you might find that your new rudder won't line up with your gurdions on your boat. This is somthing that has to be done on site.

Edited by - on

blanik
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 10:29:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 I can't answer as to which rudder is the best but I'm not sure they will install the pintles for you. Without them knowing the exact placement of your gurdions you might find that your new rudder won't line up with your gurdions on your boat. This is somthing that has to be done on site.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i have all the required measurements, IDA rudders even have the form online to put the measurements and i presume CD would do the same since they sell one with the pintles

http://www.idasailor.com/worksheets/transom_worksheet.html

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 10:46:12

Ah..Good to know.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 11:11:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]
there seems to be a lot of stories of new rudders cracking and all, are they all from the same company (you can private message me if there are thing that can't be said in public :-/)

thanks
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
How do I PM you. E-mail me at dadinnc(at)gmail.com and let me know which rudders you are referring to that crack?
NCBrew

Edited by - NCBrew on 03/03/2012 15:10:43

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 11:12:30

You can talk to CD support about mounting the pintles--they should be able to do it with your measurements, and gudgeon positions are probably pretty standard (except for maybe a change when Catalina went to the balanced design). A small discrepancy can be made up with some washers.

I'm pretty sure IDA's (Rudder Craft's) are all HDPE. CD's fiberglass/foam rudder is the OEM balanced model from about 1987 on. I bought one to replace my splitting unbalanced 1985 original, and was very pleased, although mounting the pintles was tricky. (I guess you already read about that.) Long Island Sound chop can stress a rudder about as much as anywhere.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/03/2012 11:25:32

blanik
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 11:23:39

@NCBrew, it's not a secret, i got those stories from the multitude of treads, you can do a search for the words "new rudder" in the search tab (upper right corner) and there are a couple of stories about this but i can't tell if it happens on the same brand or different brands...

@Stinkpotter, did you get the foam one from CD?

the one name that gets good reviews is Foss (FL) but their site is really bad, no prices, no pictures...

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 11:26:35

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 12:20:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blanik
 @NCBrew, it's not a secret, i got those stories from the multitude of treads, you can do a search for the words "new rudder" in the search tab (upper right corner) and there are a couple of stories about this but i can't tell if it happens on the same brand or different brands...

@Stinkpotter, did you get the foam one from CD?

the one name that gets good reviews is Foss (FL) but their site is really bad, no prices, no pictures...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It seems like nowadays a good site is a sign of a good company, but I can assure you that is not always the case. Some companies just don't have the time for one or even need one with all the work they have. Word of mouth will always trump a
website.
I had great service from Foss and love the rudder! They even contacted me immediately when I asked them for coating advice several months later.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 03/03/2012 12:23:31

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 15:18:47

I didn't think the tales of cracked "new" rudders seemed so commonplace. Some of the posts that came up were 15 years old. I wouldn't worry about either Foss's or CD. I'm not convinced that HDPE is a good rudder material, but you aren't thinking of those anyway

Edited by - on

rrick
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 15:26:26

Did you like the description of robustness for the Catalina Direct C-25 Blue Water rudder? Replacing the original that has years of drill and fill operations with a throw away part scares me, especially since it costs a grand.

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 18:07:29

The unknown in most of the reported failures is how the rudder was cared for....if left exposed when on the hard, full sun and/or wide temp swings when air temps are below freezing can lead to failure. On the other hand a rudder stored properly can last for years. If I were replacing mine, I'd go for either Floss (new company) or CD.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 20:23:45

Foss is hardly new. They've built original rudders for many many manufacturers. I believe they built our original rudders for Catalina but had to give back the mold when done.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 21:00:19

There is an "old" Foss in CA and an unrelated "new" one in FL.

Edited by - on

blanik
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2012 : 22:31:56

which one did most of you ordered from the FL ou CA one?

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2012 : 06:46:35

I was lucky enough to send my 89 balanced rudder to Foss in CA so he could make a new mold. He sent me back the first new one for free. Don did say that he would try his best to make it the best and cheapest on the market. From other's replies, it appears that he is.

Here is the thread: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23022&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=rudder

Edited by - NautiC25 on 03/04/2012 06:48:27

eguevara
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
111 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2012 : 21:11:00

Foss (CA) quoted me $650 for a new rudder. plus $47 in freight..
just an FYI

-eddy

Edited by - on

blanik
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2012 : 21:43:46

i just got a quote from them, the shipping is about the same but they forgot to put the price of the rudder... ! haha
so i guess it will be 650$

they say they don't put the pintles... i would have preferred that to drilling it myself

Edited by - on

eguevara
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
111 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2012 : 21:59:39

well that's the same price as CD... I thought there were gonna be cheaper.. about $500...

-eddy

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 06:37:51

Ask them to beat the price. I think someone did that before.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 11:43:25

I found that mounting the pintles is trickier than I had anticipated... The blade is not precisely flat, so drilling holes from both sides that line up perfectly for the bolts is not simple. And my pintles fit so tightly onto the blade that there was no margin of error. If CD will do it for you and Foss won't, that could be a big check in the plus column for CD.

Edited by - on

blanik
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 15:48:16

so far the only one who would install the pintles is IDA but they just have the HDPE rudders :-/ (CD has a rudder with pintles and rudder but they don't seem like they would sell it without the rudder and it's the HDPE) bummer

so far here are the options:

CD:
HDPE naked: 76" X 12" (nice aspect ratio) 649$
or with pintles tiller: 789$ (have to call for s/h)
FG/FOAM, naked only (i don't have the dimensions but they seem to be made by Foss): 660$ (have to call for s/h)

IDA:
HDPE with pintles (according to IDA it's the same as CD's HDPE): 689$ (have to call for s/h)

FOSS FL:
FG/FOAM, naked only (69" X 15" closer to original aspect ratio): 552$ (+150$ s/h)

FOSS CA:
FG/FOAM, naked only (65-1/2" X 14-5/8" original aspect ratio): 650$ (+57$ s/h)

so the prices are pretty close to one another the main difference being the material and the aspect ratio

HDPE (longer thinner = less drag and more lift = better performance)
FG/FOAM (shorter larger = more drag and less lift = less performance)

which is a drag because i would have liked the longer rudder made with FG/FOAM..!

(my reason preferring the FG is the rigidity, a flexing rudder might stall faster with some weather helm) :-/

Edited by - blanik on 03/08/2012 23:02:56

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2012 : 04:24:42

I am putting off a decision to buy a new rudder for now. But my way of thinking is the original rudder is made of FG and it has lasted fine all these years now being...~ 23 years old and so I would go with what has worked well all these years. Why mess with success. As far as I know the HDPE rudders are still relatively new as far as the masses fully testing them out as long as the FG rudders. While there have not been all that many that have related snapping of the HDPE rudders, the fact is that there have been some reported on this forum and my thought is that proportionately compared to how many HDPE rudders vs FG rudders there are out there, my sense is that while the incidence is probably low, there have been more failures with the HDPE rudders proportionate to how many are presently being used on sailboats vs FG rudders. How long have HDPE rudders been on the market anyway ? 10 years ? and how many were in production for the oldest ones vs FG rudders. if it were me, I like to reward success and FG rudders have provided so many years of reliability...at least on my boat.

Edited by - OLarryR on 03/09/2012 04:26:15

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2012 : 15:15:42

Thanks for assembling that list. I'm also going to be looking for a new rudder at some point (my current one is splitting near the top).

I didn't see the FG/Foam rudder on CD's website. Is it an item that you need to call about?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2012 : 17:13:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Thanks for assembling that list. I'm also going to be looking for a new rudder at some point (my current one is splitting near the top).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The split is not an uncommon issue with these rudders, including mine at one time, and depending on the degree, can be repaired somewhat easily. If the split on your rudder is above the waterline, it may not be that big a deal, but check out the areas around the pintles carefuly. To repair, I just cleaned out the crack a bit, then filled it with epoxy.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2012 : 18:01:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 ...I didn't see the FG/Foam rudder on CD's website. Is it an item that you need to call about?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm pretty sure (but can't guarantee) that it's the [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=761&ParentCat=82"]$660 version[/url] for which they aren't showing a picture. You can or e-mail them to check.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.