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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Finally go my new rudder!

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blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/06/2012 : 21:46:58

Finally go my new rudder form Foss (California), they did an excellent job, it looked and felt like an actual sailplane rudder ;-)

putting the pintles on was a breeze, the trick is not to try to go through with the drill in one go, once the marks are made in the pintle holes on each side, i drilled only 1/2" deep one side at the time, once it's done you know the holes in the fiberglass shell are aligned, then you take a small bit and find the hole in the foam, it was a lot easier than it seems

the packaging was so so, a wooden frame around but cardboard on both sides, i expected a full wooden crate, the box was mangled a bit but the rudder was unscathed so no harm there

and this rudder is a bit higher than my old one, the tiller used to rest on the transom but now it's about 2" higher than the transom, no problem there either...

1984 C25 FK/SR #4593
Lake Champlain

Edited by - blanik on 04/06/2012 21:51:16

Arlington
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USA
196 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2012 : 22:15:00

Richard, your rudder looks great! I just finished re-fiber glassing mine, and then painting it. You don't notice all its details and intricacy's, until after you have messed with it for a few days.
Doug

Edited by - Arlington on 04/06/2012 22:15:56

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2012 : 06:40:01

It looks great! Is that a balanced or traditional version? Did you buy direct from Foss or through CD?

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2012 : 08:51:59

Balanced. See that the lower portion extends forward of the gudgeons and pintles. The advantage is a lighter helm since water pressure on the forward portion helps offset pressure on the aft portion. The downside of the compromise is that it won't turn as tightly and stalls sooner. A reasonable trade-off on a C-25.

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2012 : 09:35:58

I was going to replace my rudder but when I had the waterproofing job done on the hull, the boatyard indicated my rudder was okay for now and they slapped waterproofing on it followed by lower half- anti-fouling paint. But when I go for a new rudder, I am going same route as you with Foss. Looks like they did a great job !!

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2012 : 11:27:41

Do the Foss rudders have the seam on the edge or do they glass over it?

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blanik
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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2012 : 16:27:19

no seam, it's clean as a sailplane's controls (although probably not as solid ;-)

i got it form Foss directly, shipped at my marina in no time...

(@ Dave, a compensated rudder will not stall sooner (if anything it'll stall a bit later but the stall might surprise you more since the compensation removes some of the force fed back to the helm), and it will seem to turn tighter due to lighter forces on the helm it's a flexible rudder that will stall sooner, the glass/foam one isn't nearly as flexible as the HDPE one)

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2012 : 11:36:29

Yup--I didn't notice any maneuvering difference when I replace the original unbalanced rudder with that same balanced design (from CD). It just made turning easier ("power steering"), and the NACA foil shape eliminated the flutter I had been having and probably increased rather than decreased the stall angle.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2012 : 16:14:48

I don't think you would really notice anyway. The over reach is very small and it is an overall benefit on a C-25

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NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 10:26:46

Glad you liked it and went with Foss. They were great to deal with when getting mine and the rudder came out perfect. Love the no seams.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 10:41:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 ...Love the no seams.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Just don't leave it out in freezing weather, or it might create some "seams". Also, the part with bottom paint should not be exposed to direct sunlight when out of the water.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 12:40:23

I still agree that the C-25 benefits from a balanced rudder, but:

"with about 15 to 17 percent of its area forward of the pivoting axis, gives a lighter helm and quicker response, but it tends to stall at a smaller angle of attack"

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blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 15:01:42

having an area in front on the axis shouldn't physically influence the stall angle, the aspect ratio (length vs width of the submerged part) and the heeling angle would do that though...

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 17:33:11

So will the lateral and cross-section shape, rectangular vs. ellipsoid. None of this is really very significant for a C-25, but as I was researching to determine whether I had correct info or had just incorporated another old sailing myth (I'm certainly not exempt from that), I learned that a balanced rudder also will stall much sooner than an unbalanced if both are turned too quickly. There was a lot of interesting data available, but much of it was pretty esoteric with limited practical significance. The earlier stall may be related to disrupting the flow on both sides of the midline aft of the keel. I do know that I learned more than I wanted to know about the hydrodynamics of turning a boat. I had never thought about how a rudder can cause a flat bottomed, keeless, sailing barge to turn, and I probably won't think of it much again. I think this is getting pretty far OT and I'll drift away.

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blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 20:26:18

do you have a link to this technical info?
i'm quite sure about this one and it relates to pendulum rudder vs. rudder attached to a skeg (or to a long keel), a non-compensated rudder will have the same effective angle as a compensated one (pendulum) as opposed to a skeg or keel rudder, on those the effective angle will be the resulting angle of both the rudder and the longitudinal plane (skeg or long keel) so to achieve a similar deflecting force you will be able to angle the rudder more than on a pendulum rudder (comp or not), it will stall at a greater tiller deflection but the effective deflecting force will be pretty much the same

but if you have a site or book that says otherwise i'd love to check it out

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 07:12:14

Doing my taxes now, but I'll get back to the excerpts I read and email you a list later in the week.

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NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 09:18:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 ...Love the no seams.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Just don't leave it out in freezing weather, or it might create some "seams". Also, the part with bottom paint should not be exposed to direct sunlight when out of the water.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Freezing weather......lol.........

Foss' customer service is excellent and gave me plenty of "what not to do" advice. I pasted it all in the Foss rudder thread.
I painted mine because it sits in the water all year. But for a trailer sailor, I wouldn't paint it. If stowing it for the winter, then it needs to go inside the cabin.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 04/10/2012 09:20:31

blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2012 : 15:22:26

i'm going to leave it without anti-fouling for this summer and see what happens, i swim around the boat at anchor when it's warm and go around the hull with a sponge to rub off the green slime once in a while, when i took it out of the water last fall the boat was very clean so i will try that with the rudder... if it become green and i can't clean it, i'll sand it lightly and apply anti-fouling paint, if not, i'll just leave it like that

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