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Honda impeller rebuild kit

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/21/2012 : 22:01:43

Larry and Scott,
So I loosened the 5 nuts / bolts holding the lower unit on today (the prop and transmission section, the pump and the extension section) of my Honda 8 and it would NOT BUDGE one bit. As you might have expected I left the repair manual at home.
I had only a short time and tried tapping it with a rubber mallet, but still no action.

When I got home, I checked the repair book and it told me to:
1. tilt the engine up to 45 degrees
2. remove the prop from the shaft
3. remove the prop shaft retainer (the bearing section)
4. put the transmission in reverse
5. remove the transmission linkage
6. remove the five nuts from the studs
The whole thing should come apart in pieces, and the impeller pump housing should be visible just under the extension section of the XL engine.
I never got that far.... the housing was completely stuck on the engine and would not move

Has anybody done the job on a Honda8 or 9.9 X Long shaft? Do I really have to remove the prop and the prop shaft?, or can I simply detach the entire lower unit without removing the prop?

I have to get this done by Friday, since the yard is planning to launch me at the end of the day then. I have tomorrow and Monday only to fix it, as I will be out the rest of the week.

Edited by - Voyager on 04/21/2012 22:10:40

islander
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 05:34:12

Bruce, Through the years I have changed out impellers on many different outboards and the procedure is basically the same for all of them. I never had to remove the prop on any of them. You did disconnect the shift rod, right? If Its been some time between separation it can be reluctant to come apart. Tap left then right etc. Be careful about hitting the plates/fins, they can be snapped off. 5 bolts??? odd. I think your manual is showing you the compleate disasembly of the lower unit, You just need the water pump.
shift rod disconect opening. Unscrew the barrel nut (upper one) untill the rod comes apart.

On my 9.9 I have four bolts. Photo shows two, the other two are on the other side. On your 8hp you say you have five but this will show the location of the bolts or nuts.

Edited by - islander on 04/22/2012 07:46:46

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 06:14:50

I do not recall all the steps when I replaced my impeller last Fall/beginning of winter, however, I do remember that I definitely did not remove the prop from the gear box. Back when I tackled this job, I looked over the shop manual steps just as you are doing now and I said to my self - "Self - Why would I want to remove the prop when it is on the other side of the gear box and in no way plays a role in removing those 5 bolts from the gear box to the extension." So, I did not remove the prop separating it from the gear box.

However, there is a step that I do not know if you performed. You have to follow the shop manual for undoing the barrel nut and locking nut from linkage that is from your handle to the gear box. There is a window/vertical rectangular opening in the front of the casing just below the engine for gaining access to undo the barrel nut from the lower linkage. Once that is undone, I believe it is just the 5 bolts down below on the gear box need removal and then the unit should separate. There are two small dowel pins at the front and back of the extension to believe gear box joint that may hold the sections together a bit. A rubber mallet used sort of gently on the lower section will encourage it to separate...but as noted in above posting - be careful using a rubber mallet on the vetilation plate wings - They could snap off.

Make sure you go over the shop manual one more time and see if there is anything other than the transmission linkage barrel nut and the 5 lower bolts that is holding units together. But I do not think so. (Also, follow shop manual guidance as to barrel nut...marking location so you can re-tighten in exact spot so linkage is proper length once again during re-install.)

Edited by - OLarryR on 04/22/2012 06:22:07

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 07:33:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 ...My motor is a 2000 BF15A with extra long shaft, which is mechanically identical to the BF9.9A...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Not as-of the year of Bruce's (my old) motor ('02). Then and now the 9.9 and 8 are identical (except, I was told, for the cam). The 15 stayed the same for a couple of years until they brought out a new, identical 15/20 pair, which are the current models.

Bruce: I replaced the thermostat every year (or to put it more accurately, had it replaced). It's a somewhat delicate mechanical component living in salt water that regularly drains and dries, and as you know, it is critical. I did the impeller every 2-3 years, I'm not sure, so it may have been a year or two old when I sold her in '06--probably not older. If it starts coming apart, bits of it can get caught in the cooling passages and create big problems. If the impeller hadn't been changed since I sold Passage, I'd say it was overdue--you were lucky to catch it!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/22/2012 07:52:56

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 08:52:43

Scott - I see what you are talking about - where you have bolts holding the section together I have threaded rods with lock nuts on the XL version. I see the slot where the shift rod nuts are - I did not disconnect the linkage (that would have been my step 5, according to the repair manual).

Larry - again you mention this as essential:<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Olarry: "...follow the shop manual for undoing the barrel nut and locking nut from linkage..."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I also was careful about using the rubber mallet - I avoided making black marks on the housing and avoided whacking the fins.

My main worry was whether the bottom end of the drive shaft was somehow "locked" into the transmission assembly in the bottom unit, connecting it to the prop shaft (and thus adding credence to the concept of having to remove the prop shaft first). Apparently, the drive shaft simply slips out of the transmission without undue force, allowing the bottom unit to come off.

To get an idea of the picture, www.boats.net has a handly exploded view on: [url="http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Honda/Outboard%20Engine/2001/BFP8D1%20LHSA%20VIN%23%20BAAJ-1000001%20TO%20BAAJ-1099999/parts.html"]Honda Engine[/url]

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 08:56:04

Dave - I also ordered the thermostat and will replace that as well....
.... so far, so good.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 09:13:27

Bruce, the drive shaft is splined at the top and simply slides in and out of the bottom of the engine and will stay attached to the lower unit. The water tube will remain attached to the engine and will slide out of the impeller housing. If you don't disconnect the shift rod first you can beat on it all day and it won't come apart. The impeller is inside the black plastic housing with the drive shaft running through it. Remove the 4 bolts and pull the housing up off the shaft. There you will find the impeller. This photo is basically what you will find once opened. This is a 9.9 but yours will be similar. The black plastic housing has the drive shaft running through it. The tall black tube coming up out of the housing is where the water tube slides into. Remove the four bolts holding the housing and slide the housing up and off the shaft. The impeller is inside that housing.

Edited by - islander on 04/22/2012 11:22:29

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 14:26:59

Scott & all -
I did remove the linkage, but that was not the problem. It was quite an ordeal removing the gearbox unit today.

Unlike most other 8HP Honda 4 stroke outboards, the Honda 2002 BF8D2-XHSA extra long shaft engine has five stainless-steel threaded rods holding the bottom unit on. The stainless reacted with the aluminum housing over time, and it took quite a bit of persistent leverage to remove the housing from the engine.

After about two hours, I pulled the bottom unit off and opened up the water pump. I removed the old impeller (it had exactly ZERO vanes on it) and tried to slide on the replacement impeller. It did not fit on the shaft. Center hole is about 1-2mm too small. I double and triple checked the engine and the part # on www.Defender.com.

So I cross-checked it on www.boats.net . Wouldn't you know it? All the BF8D2's except the XL uses a smaller impeller. The XL requires the same impeller that's used on the 15 & 20 HP engine. The two have completely different Honda part numbers.

Since I have limited time (splash is on Friday 27 April), I have two possible options:
(1) West Marine offers a "Sierra" replacement impeller (which may be in stock) or
(2) A small Honda parts reseller shop is located in the next town, and they may have the correct one in stock.
If I can buy it on Monday morning, I may still have a chance to "get 'er done" tomorrow.

I'm not certain whether Sierra is just a knockoff, or if it's a quality brand?

Edit: So I went to my local West Marine store thinking I might get lucky. As I neared the store, I noticed that the power was out at the traffic lights. Seems everybody went home when the power went out. Some things are just not meant to be.

BTW, the thermostat was a 10 minute job. The old one was all crudded up, but it still worked fine. I cleaned the area out, greased the gasket and popped in the new unit. It was no problem at all, and I'm glad I could take care of that today.

Edited by - Voyager on 04/22/2012 14:34:09

islander
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 15:10:51

Gee Bruce, I guess this isn't a good day to buy a lottery ticket but go to Honda Marines web site and then search find a dealer. Its not like your out in the boonies. If you can't determine the direction of the vanes from the old one, With the cup facing you I think the vanes will sweep to the right.

Edited by - islander on 04/22/2012 15:12:16

GaryB
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 17:42:40

You could try to slip it into forward with the shift lever and rotate the drive shaft. Then watch which way the propellor turns. When moving in the correct direction you can tell which waqy the drive shaft is turning.

I'm not sure it is advised or even possible to do what I described above so do so at your own risk and take it for what it's worth (nothing).

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 18:31:23

Why not just pull the starter cord? No need to even put it in gear.

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/22/2012 18:47:47

GaryB
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 18:33:44

The lower unit is removed from the powerhead but maybe you could look up into the upper housing and see the end of the shaft and which way it's turning.

Edit: Yeah, I guess you're right. You could just look at the direction the flywheel is spinning to see which way the shaft is spinning down at the impeller.

Edited by - GaryB on 04/22/2012 19:34:08

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 21:07:10

Bruce,

In regards to the wrong impeller.....Check out page 1 of this posting thread and go down to the 5th posting, dated 8APR12. I mentioned there about checking the impeller to make sure it is right-sized for the XLS shaft which is of larger diameter than the other non-xls models. Looks like you originally were given the wrong impeller simikar to what happened with me. I bet we are not the only two that have experienced this error...at least it is easy to correct.

Edited by - OLarryR on 04/22/2012 21:13:05

islander
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Response Posted - 04/23/2012 : 13:55:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">at least it is easy to correct<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not a big deal if Bruce had the time but today (Mon) is the last day he has to fix it. He won't be around the rest of the week and he gets launched on Friday. A real pressure cooker here...Stay tuned.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/23/2012 : 19:07:33

I can't get the $&!% shift linkage off!

It seems like crevice corrosion has seized it up.

I'm afraid to torque it too hard because I don't want to break the shift rods. I sprayed some PB blaster on and it didn't budge. I went back a few hours later (after the solvents had evaporated off) and heated it up with a barbeque lighter, still no luck. I squirted some more PB in the hot linkage hoping the thermal gradient might draw it into the threads, but no luck so far.

It looks like I'm going to have to pull the motor back off the boat and take it down to the Honda dealer. I suspect they're busy this time of year, so my planned Friday launch is probably toast.

The other option is to just leave it, since water was flowing OK when I tested (just pausing a split second occasionally), but I'm afraid I'm living on borrowed time. I've had the boat two full seasons, and don't know when the impeller was last changed. The fact that the linkage seized makes me think it's been a long time.

FWIW, the thermostat replacement was a piece of cake.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/23/2012 : 19:20:28

Rick (RhythmDoctor) -
I feel your pain. I was beside myself trying to the get the thing apart yesterday.

Larry -
I should have heeded your advice and warning, however, somehow I didn't figure that would apply to me.

I was able to buy the part today at lunch, and brought the old part to the Honda dealer just to make sure. I had the lower unit in the trunk, so I was able to give it a try on the spot. The dealer advised me to refer to the engine's serial number in the future.

I was all set to dash over to the boat right after dinner... but then some emergency popped up, so I could not get over to the boat to finish the job.

I have one chance on Wednesday evening. If I can make it, I will go over to install the unit. It will be a true squeaker! Worst case, my launch will be delayed by a week.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/24/2012 : 08:47:08

You might not be missing that much this weekend--50s with some rain... (?)

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 04/24/2012 : 14:15:14

Lesson learned is that " If it ain't broke don't fix it" Only applies to household light bulbs...You can't ignore routine maintenance.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 04/24/2012 : 17:18:43

Just a thought but if something is well seized you need to think about letting the PB Blaster work days, not hours. Also a cigarette lighter will not provide the level of heat you need. A butane cigar lighter or mini-torch would be much more capable of transmitting the heat required to expand the metals.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/24/2012 : 17:40:30

I know a torch is probably needed, but I'll leave that to the pros. Too much downside potential to a DIY job with a torch. I'll have him check out some other things too.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 04/25/2012 : 06:15:23

Rick,
I'm following this thread with a lot of interest, and tried to do my impeller replacement last night. Mine is an 8HP long shaft, not the XL. First, I took apart the wrong section of the extension. Wouldn't have been a big deal, but one of the 5 bolts snapped on me. I put the extension back on (loosely) with the 4 bolts (I'm headed to Harbor Freight in a bit to get the extractors I'll need) and dropped the lower section. The water pump came apart fairly easily and the impeller looked pretty good. The impeller kit I got came with two rubber seals and a large, rubber-clad thing that kind of looked like a washer. My rubber seals were pretty sell stuck, and it took an effort to dislodge them, but I succeeded. Then I tried to figure out where the washer-shaped thingy goes. After some sleuthing, I realized that the surface on which the impeller sat wasn't actually part of the frame, as I had thought, but was in fact the washer-shaped thing with LOTS of corrosion on it. It was so badly corroded, even after fighting with it for several hours, I couldn't get it out. I think I'm going to have to resort to a Dremel to cut it. Then I get to reassemble everything and change the oil (NEEDED in the lower unit, because some of the corrosion got in there).

Did I mention that the boat is being towed on Friday so I can launch?

Anyway, just wanted you to know you're not alone in this!

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 04/25/2012 : 08:02:05

Jim,
While you have it apart check out the bearing that sets inside the extension above the impeller. If it feels rough when turning it you should replace it as well. About $20 for a new one I believe. I used an automobile dent puller with a hook attached to pop mine out.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/25/2012 : 19:50:21

So now I have the replacement impeller and installed it in the pump. I bolted the bottom unit on and ran the motor. NO WATER was pumping through the engine.

It could be one of two issues:
> I may have missed the key pin on the shaft or
> I may not have connected the water tube up correctly.

It got to be pitch black dark out this evening so I gave up.
Last chance, tomorrow morning at 6AM before work. Marina plans to launch me on Friday.

As you say Dave, the weather on Saturday will be chilly, but no worse than the day I moved up the river last October. Winds will be light and skies will be mostly sunny. It'll be nice to get back out on the water.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/25/2012 : 20:46:04

This thread seems to be a good collection of the perils of DIY work, and reasons to have the dealer do the work instead.

I'm 99% certain that my upper shift rod broke. After a few days of soaking in PB Blaster, the linkage seemed to come loose with some jerky rotation, followed by smoother rotation. But later the linkage came totally loose, indicating that those jerky motions were probably the upper shift rod breaking. I was shocked, since the amount of torque I was using was definitely less than I had used previously, and I was using a very small wrench to help avoid over-torquing.

To speed up the turnaround, the dealer has pre-ordered new parts ($20 rod and $40 linkage nut), and I'll take the motor down to him when the parts come in. He estimate$ about 4 hour$ of $hop work. I was too scared to ask his shop rate.

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/25/2012 20:46:29

JimGo
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Response Posted - 04/25/2012 : 21:41:26

Average in this area seems to be about $100/hr, Rick. Good luck!

Bruce, good luck tomorrow!

I managed to get everything reassembled, and will test it tomorrow.

Edited by - on

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