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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

New boom bail for mid-boom sheeting

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OJ
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Initially Posted - 04/17/2012 : 17:54:55

Preparing to move mainsheet traveler forward - just behind companionway. Rig-Rite makes flanges, compression tube and bail for our boom - but the bolt diameter is 3/8" . . . much larger than the C25 requires. CD sells a bail only. Purchased a short piece of 1/2" OD bar stock from OnLine Metals dot com. Had a 1/4"+ hole drilled and voila:

1989 C25 TR/WK, #5822
1973 McVay Minuet 19
1975 Jester 12
1981 C25 SR/SK, #2428
1981 C22 SR/SK,
Tanzer 16
Sunfish

"There is nothing, absolutely nothing half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." Kenneth Grahame

Edited by - OJ on 04/17/2012 18:11:12

pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/17/2012 : 18:41:36

It always seemed to me that mid boom sheeting should use two bails to spread the load, considering the boom was not specked for mid boom sheeting. Of course the boom may be way stronger than I think. Have you considered using two?

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 04/17/2012 : 19:12:37

You can get aluminum or stainless steel pipe from Online Metals to avoid drilling the hole (which requires access to a lathe). This size will work well with a 1/4" bolt:
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=940&step=4&showunits=inches&id=58&top_cat=1

That can be cut with a hacksaw and made square with a file.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 04/17/2012 : 19:19:38

Hi Frank,

Yes, that was the original plan but a few pros (including Gary at Ullman-Ventura and one of the Harken techs) said more than one bail on the boom would be overkill.

Even if the collar/bushing below isn't really necessary - I (like you) like to overbuild or provide a cushion - within reason. Just want to spread the point load. I may still have the OD turned down some.

Edited by - OJ on 04/18/2012 09:29:31

OJ
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Response Posted - 04/17/2012 : 19:31:24

Alex, I appreciate your input. Though the label on the bar stock doesn't show it, the piece is silicon bronze, grade 655. It is used a lot for marine applications. But you are correct, 304 stainless is a good choice for freshwater environments.

Online Metals - great resource!

http://www.onlinemetals.com/bronzeguide.cfm

Edited by - OJ on 04/17/2012 19:53:29

awetmore
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 06:22:24

Isn't most of the stock stainless on the boat made of 304? 316 would be better, but they didn't have it in the right profile for this application. It seems like this is in a fairly well protected area, the inside of the boom doesn't regularly get immersed in salt water.

Online Metals is handy, it is especially nice that their main warehouse is in Seattle so I can pick up items in person and dig through their cutoff bins for deals.

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Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 06:56:08

Knowing the trouble it will entail to hold that compression tube in position inside the boom in order to thread the bolt through it, I'm wondering if the compression tube would actually provide any benefit. The bail will need to swivel: if it's perpendicular to the axis of the boom when the traveler is centered, it will be angled toward the base of the mast when the boom is swung to the ends of the traveler or beyond. For that reason you won't want to tighten the nut down against the outside of the boom. The nyloc will keep it from working loose. If you don't draw the head of the bolt and the nut together there's no need for a compression tube between them to resist deforming the boom.

Just a thought.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 08:38:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Isn't most of the stock stainless on the boat made of 304? 316 would be better, but they didn't have it in the right profile for this application. It seems like this is in a fairly well protected area, the inside of the boom doesn't regularly get immersed in salt water.

Online Metals is handy, it is especially nice that their main warehouse is in Seattle so I can pick up items in person and dig through their cutoff bins for deals.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Most of the references I see for stainless boat hardware is 316. Since its inception - stainless has taken the place of silicon bronze - on boats at least.

You have the ability to sift through OM's cutoff bins? I am green with envy

Edited by - OJ on 04/18/2012 08:40:57

OJ
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 09:08:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lee Panza
 Knowing the trouble it will entail to hold that compression tube in position inside the boom in order to thread the bolt through it, I'm wondering if the compression tube would actually provide any benefit. The bail will need to swivel: if it's perpendicular to the axis of the boom when the traveler is centered, it will be angled toward the base of the mast when the boom is swung to the ends of the traveler or beyond. For that reason you won't want to tighten the nut down against the outside of the boom. The nyloc will keep it from working loose. If you don't draw the head of the bolt and the nut together there's no need for a compression tube between them to resist deforming the boom.

Just a thought.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">All good thoughts Lee!

My primary goal is to spread the point load - to prevent/minimize elongation of the bolt hole. You are correct about the swivel and the changing angle of mainsheet. I plan to put just enough tension on the nut to allow swivel.

The picture above incorrectly shows the ss washers on the outside of the bail. They will actually be placed between the bail and the compression tube. The widest point of the boom (port to starboard) is exactly 2.75" as is the compression tube. So, the tube will protrude slightly outside the boom just above and below the hole on each side of the boom. The mouth of the bail is currently wider than 2.75".

Appreciate the input!

Edited by - OJ on 04/18/2012 18:29:04

Ape-X
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 10:02:54

how about two bolts, threaded into the bushing then? Using shoulder bolts threaded into the bushing allows a fully torqued fastener, and the shoulder provides then the pivot for the bail.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 11:52:49

I based my 304 comment based on Catalina Direct's catalog. They like to mention that they use 316 instead of the original 304 that Catalina used on most of the hardware.

Online Metals has cutoff bins that are open to the public. $3/lb for bronze, $2/lb for aluminum, $1/lb for steel. Most cutoffs are under 12". I have a small metal shop in my basement (medium sized lathe, small knee mill, tiny CNC mill, bandsaw) and a good chunk of my material comes from their remnants.

I was also wondering on how you planned to hold the spacer in the boom, it'll be a little tricky.

Edited by - on

delliottg
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 12:43:46

Hah, I had no idea these guys were local-ish. I'll need to stop by next time I'm in town during the week. Rita's got a friend flying in tomorrow evening, and I'm sure a trip to the Ballard Locks will be in the offing, so I can sneak away & dig through bins. Unfortunately that also means a trip to the tulip fields in Skagit County... At least during the week that's not so bad.

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 13:15:32

could you stand the boom on end and suspend the bail with some twine (one loop on each side), or even use a bridal (sp?) like you use on the bow of a dinghie (sp?)?

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 17:20:25

Well, if you're going to install the compression tube, consider this approach. Rip a 2x4 to slide into the boom, long enough to reach just past the holes for the bale. Drill your holes in the boom, running the bit just over halfway through the 2x4 from each side. Withdraw the 2x4 and enlarge the hole to the O.D. of the compression tube, and then cross-cut the 2x4 through the hole. Now secure the compression tube in that semi-hole using some kind of adhesive tape. This will hold the tube in place while you thread the bolt through. Once the bolt is in place, you pull the 2x4 out and the tape tears away leaving the tube in place.

If you cut a piece of 1/4" rod long enough for both ends to bear on the inner surface of the boom you might even be able to put those washers in when you set the compression tube; then your bolt just drives that rod out the other side as it slides in.

Let me know if it works, in case I ever need to do something similar : )

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 18:00:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 I based my 304 comment based on Catalina Direct's catalog. They like to mention that they use 316 instead of the original 304 . . . I have a small metal shop in my basement (medium sized lathe, small knee mill, tiny CNC mill, bandsaw) and a good chunk of my material comes from their remnants.

I was also wondering on how you planned to hold the spacer in the boom, it'll be a little tricky.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

They say it is better to have a friend with a boat - I have a friend with a machine shop

. Interesting point, I didn't realize 304 was ever used in marine applications - it was a predecessor to 316?

Alex, Lee, Jim!
Let me try to explain this better. The width of the boom (port to starboard) is 2.75". The length of the spacer (or compression tube) is 2.75" long - so it will rest on the edges of the hole I will drill through each side of the boom (the holes being the same diameter as the OD of the spacer.) I will simply slide the spacer though one hole over to the other. The OD of the ss flat washers are a slightly larger than the OD of the spacer. When I tighten the nut it will compress the bail until it (and the flat washers) just touch the the spacer.

Seems I am stimulating brain cells with this little project! Now you've got me thinking I'm overlooking something!

Edited by - OJ on 04/18/2012 18:04:53

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 04/18/2012 : 23:09:28

OK, now that's clear, and a good idea.

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Tomas Kruska
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Response Posted - 04/19/2012 : 00:50:22

I have my bail attached in the 3/4 of the boom and attached to boom by 4 rivets.
It was done by PO and still without any signs of wear.

It looks like this but rounded

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 04/19/2012 : 06:41:27

304 and 316 are both common forms of stainless steel. 316 does have higher corrosion resistance and is stronger, but isn't available in as many shapes and costs more.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 05/01/2012 : 16:58:12

Had the bushing turned down to 27/64" OD to accomodate the shackle on one of the fiddle blocks (for the internal outhaul.)

Here's the bushing set in the boom:

Edited by - OJ on 05/01/2012 17:03:35

pastmember
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 11:18:43

That is lovely.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 11:59:14

Yepper... ya can't get it any better than that.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 05/03/2012 : 10:44:04

I'm lucky to have a friend and machinist who works with very small tolerances . . .

Everything he's done for me is perfect.

Edited by - OJ on 05/03/2012 10:58:19

Heartbeat
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Response Posted - 05/04/2012 : 09:05:18

Looks nice, and I agree mid/boom or 60% is a better condition. A racing question, thought: don't class rules require the original sheeting location in both width and for/aft setup?

At one point I was putting together a plan to get a 'real' traveller in the back with the Harken setup. I thought someone pointed out that what I was looking to do would violate class rules. Am I not remembering correctly?

Edited by - Heartbeat on 05/04/2012 09:08:52

OJ
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Response Posted - 05/04/2012 : 18:40:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Heartbeat
 Looks nice, and I agree mid/boom or 60% is a better condition. A racing question, thought: don't class rules require the original sheeting location in both width and for/aft setup?

At one point I was putting together a plan to get a 'real' traveller in the back with the Harken setup. I thought someone pointed out that what I was looking to do would violate class rules. Am I not remembering correctly?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
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Response Posted - 05/04/2012 : 20:20:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Heartbeat
 Looks nice, and I agree mid/boom or 60% is a better condition. A racing question, thought: don't class rules require the original sheeting location in both width and for/aft setup?

At one point I was putting together a plan to get a 'real' traveller in the back with the Harken setup. I thought someone pointed out that what I was looking to do would violate class rules. Am I not remembering correctly?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Darn.

(I am assuming that I am remembering correctly, and this will violate class racing rules. Please correct me, OJ - Thx!)

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OJ
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Response Posted - 05/05/2012 : 19:00:39

FWIW, our mainsheet blocks are attached to the boom and traveler with snap shackles. We can use it in its original or new position.

Edited by - OJ on 05/05/2012 19:01:14

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