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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

2 vs 4 wheel brakes on tandem trailer?

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/06/2003 : 21:54:47

Hi there,

A thread was developed in the discussion (how do we ever get sidetracked?)over my asking for leads on trailer manufacturers in Houston.

The issue was brought up about 2 vs 4 wheel brakes on a trailer. I was going to spec out 4 wheel brakes based on the advice of a friend of mine who has some experience in trucking and trailering.

It was suggested that you can "over brake" a trailer with 4 wheel brakes and cause a trailer to skid.

I was wondering how could a brake system activated by a surge mechanism possibly lock up.

The reason I'm posing this question alone is that it seems to be a very important issue, and there are some pretty smart folks on this list (at least opinionated) and would like some other input and advice on what to buy. I want what is safest. The extra 250 it would cost to add the second axle's brakes is not an issue at this point. It it is safer and saves my ass (or my boat) even once, it is worth it.

Thanks
Frank Gloss

Frank

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 22:31:27

Realy easy (DOWN HILL) unless the actuator if hydralic is not adjusted correctly. When the trailer starts to push you the hydralic actuator needs to be adjusted by a pro.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2003 : 09:21:32

See if you can get a price quote for electric brakes. They are a vast improvement over surge brakes. You actually feel like you are in control of the rig. You don't feel like the rig is in control and you are just along for the ride.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2003 : 10:13:12

You may want to check state law as well. I understand that surge brakes on recreational trailers are now illigal in several states.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

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pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2003 : 11:08:36

I know I'm being a pest, but please read this!!

Some electric brakes cannot be submerged.

That's why I didn't get them on the MagicTilt. I wanted a launching trailer, not just a transporting trailer.

Technically, Surge brakes are illegal. I researched this when buying my MagicTilt.

In the USA, as in the entire country, DOT rules specify that any multi axle trailer carying more that #3000 must have electric brakes.

I think the DOT was worried about big trucks. Not boaters. That's probably why surge brake trailers are still sold.

I called Performance trailers in Florida and they said it was not true.

Then I called the Florida State Patrol and they explained that it is true. It is not enforced on any great scale but could be if needed.

Important note here: Electric actuators are available for surge brake trailers for around 400 to 500 bucks. This will give you electric capability without the water intrusion issue.

For the record: I agree that electric brakes would be best. Just make sure you can splash them if needed. If so, get the actuator system.

Whew!

P

Edited by - pwhallon on 01/07/2003 11:11:25

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2003 : 13:38:25

Paul might be right about some electric brakes not being submersible, but you should check with some factory experts about it. I'm certainly no expert, but I pulled an Airstream travel trailer with electric brakes, and have replaced the brake shoes and electrical components. The electrical components that are inside the wheels are very well sealed to exclude moisture. Also, when on the road during a cloudburst, I have pulled my travel trailer through standing water that completely immersed the brakes. When the brake shoes got wet, they didn't grab well until they dried, but that is also generally true of all drum brakes. The electrical components continued working, even when drenched. The only problem was that the wet brake shoes slipped against the brake drum. In fact, I applied the brakes lightly to generate a little heat and dry the brake shoes. As soon as the brake shoes were dry, the electric brakes worked normally. Even on a travel trailer, electric brake components have to be designed and built to withstand complete drenching, because they get drenched in normal use.

When you back a boat trailer with surge brakes into the water, the surge brakes are not providing any braking power. All the braking is done by your tow vehicle. On a trailer with electric brakes, the same pig tail that provides electricity to the brakes also provides electricity to the trailer lights. When you disconnect the trailer lights prior to submerging the trailer, you are also disconnecting the electric brakes, but, since the tow vehicle is doing all the braking anyway, it doesn't matter.

Incidentally, some years ago I was surprised to learn that trailer brakes of all types are often not self-adjusting. Therefore, it would be a good idea to manually adjust your trailer brakes, or have them adjusted, if they have not been adjusted recently, and especially before you pull your boat a long distance.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2003 : 14:33:03

Hey Steve,
Do you have to adjust disc brakes?
I'm planning on getting stainless discs, not drums.
The question still remains--2 vs 4 wheels

Frank Gloss

Frank

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2003 : 15:00:54

"The question still remains--2 vs 4 wheels?" - Frank

If you read Randall's story of losing a wheel, then you just might opt for brakes on all four wheels.

"..then started down the road. Fifty miles east of Montgomery I glanced in my sideview mirror and noticed to my horror that I was being passed on the left by a semi and......one of my wheels!!...The wheel finally slowed to a wobble & veered into a wide, brushy portion of center median and stopped...I jumped out and retrieved it, then drove on three wheels to the next exit & went to work." - Randall

What if you lost a wheel(separated or blown out), and it was the one with the brake on it. It might cause a problem with only one side of the trailer having braking pressure applied.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
On the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2003 : 15:13:55

Stainless discs... that's the way to go.
No adjustment required. Easy to see what's
going on with them.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2984 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2003 : 17:37:36

Hmmm, 3,000 lb limit for surge brakes.... wonder if thats why Catalina published such a low weight estimation for the c250. Maybe I should change the Hmmmm to a Shhhhh

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2003 : 20:30:53

Okay, I'll bite. I have surge brakes on all four wheels of my EZLoader, but I am not confident in them at all. I adjusted them myself so they don't pull when wheels are spun, but they don't "lock up" when the lever is pulled with all my strength. I am interested in where I go about finding information on an "electric actuator" for my drum system. BTW: In Washington State, brakes on all four wheels are by law.

Incidentally, when discussing immersion: I think there's a huge difference in discussing immersion and damage to brakes, depending on whether you mean fresh water (like the water Steve M. describes on the highway) and SALTWATER. After rebuilding my brake system years ago, I vowed never again to immerse my non-galvanized, painted EZLoader into salt water. It is holding up nicely with new paint, etc., but when Encore! goes into salt, she's lifted in; the trailer never touches the water. I ramp load several times a year in the fresh water of the Columbia River, with no resultant damage to the trailer or brakes.

Gary B.
#685 SK/SR

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2003 : 13:12:25

Frank,

To answer your question, although my experience is limited to the vehicles that I have owned, I've never seen disc brakes that had to be manually adjusted.

Gary,

I agree with you, that it is undoubtedly hard on brakes to immerse them in salt water. I don't think it is significantly harder on electric brakes than on surge brakes, however. I think it is equally harmful to both types of brakes. The springs, drums, clips and all those other little parts are likely to corrode. You could always rinse the brakes after immersing them in salt water, but you would probably have to remove all the drums to do it right, and that's not a huge job, but it's a job we'd rather not do. It creates the classic dilemma. Would you rather rinse the brakes, or let them go and pay the costs of replacing them sooner?

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2003 : 19:08:39

The only rinsing my trailer gets after being in salt water is to back it into the lake. There are flush kits coming on the new trailers for those who don't have the luxury I do. The real problem I have is the electrical connections in the lights. One dip in the ocean and the lights are gone.

Ed Montague on 'Yahoo'
1978 #765 SK, Stnd, Dinette ~_/)~

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/10/2003 : 07:32:55

I had the same problem with my old lights.

I replaced them with Sealed LED lights. They cost about 40 bucks at Boater's world, and are supposed to last 100,000 hours. since then, I have noticed them on commercial rigs and trucks. They are the red lights with about 10 little light bulbs in them.

No problems with connections since then, and I do dunk it in salt water.

Frank

Frank

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