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Mooring for a Catalina 25

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rrick
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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2012 : 12:22:31

Bottom is glacial till (hence the DEEP, I'm on a lake 10x as deep now). I'd imagine this grit sticks things. After 10-15 years the helical driven anchor eye is still visible, i.e. no mud. The Dock builder would drop the ton with chain attached and hand me the end to tie off to the dock, avoiding the mooring ball fee. But, if anything did slide towards the canyon, it would be the least of my problems as it would hit the irrigation pipe first, then roll along side it close to free-fall style.

I'd get my viral video for sure if I filmed my 25' yacht diving like duck.

That pipe may be the reason my dock has the helical driven anchor, I'll have to check what the current permit says, but no excuse for driving the anchoring 4' from the end of the dock, its at least another 40' to the pipe. The water level does drop to min 4' at the dock by the time the season ends. By then I'm stuck overwinter because the launch ramps have also shortened. If that happens, I hope those underwater de-ice fans work.

BCG: five 5-gallon buckets give 5x the edges of one trashcan, as concrete molds. Are you dropping them all together? Once in the water it's like 200 lbs, but not as easy as 5 trips threading the mooring line before each drop. If your SCUBA, you can individually drop then shackle. When your 40lbs buoyancy vest is filled like a puffer fish as you adjust the buckets, don't let go :)

Edited by - on

BCG-Woodbury
Mainsheet Editor

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396 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2012 : 17:02:29

My plan is to drop the 1st one in the location I want and then slide the other 4 oner the chain with a 4" SS Ring attached to 2' of SS chain to the other loop on the 120# buckets. There is very little activity in our cove so I think I'll be fine. I'm also fitting each bucket with 2' rebar sticking out the sides to prevent roll once the dig in. The bottom is mucky as the land used to be mostly farmland and woods. The entire valley was dammed and flooded in the 30's. Everything but the main chain and rebar are SS so it should last a long time. I may have to tether the stern to limit the swing because our property is only 25' wide and we are supposed to stay within that.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2012 : 20:04:09

Remember when considering weight... Pound-for-pound in air, concrete (as in buckets) "weights" about <s>1/3</s> 2/3 as much as iron (as in mushroom anchors) when in water. So 600# of concrete is equivalent to about 400# of iron, and an iron mushroom is better designed to dig into the bottom than are buckets of concrete. I'm saying that's adequate or not--I'm just sayin'...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/03/2012 08:12:18

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 06/02/2012 : 21:05:48

I.m a fan of mushrooms for self installation, but 600# of concrete is 360# submerged.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2012 : 07:48:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 ...600# of concrete is 360# submerged.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup--around 360 or 350, depending on the concrete... And I got my numbers flipped--the equivalent submerged weight of iron would be about 400# on land, or about two-thirds of the 600# of concrete (I think). The two points are: relative weights of different materials under water vary from their relative weights on land, and my algebraic skills are rustier than the iron. (See standard forum disclaimers.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/03/2012 07:56:56

rrick
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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 14:58:15

Buoyancy does play a large role in concrete anchors. Easy to show when you inverse the object's gram/cubic centimeter density, then treat this number as percent weight loss in water.

Steel 7.8 g/cm3... 1/7.8 = 12.8% weight is lost.
Concrete 2.4 g/cm3... 1/2.4 = 41%
Gold 19.3 g/cm3... 1/19.3 = 5%

So clearly, gold is best.

Edited by - rrick on 06/04/2012 15:12:51

BCG-Woodbury
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396 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 16:40:55

My vote is for Osmium, at 22.61 g/cm3 it would by far make an ideal anchor. Lead is a good, high-density option but the environmentalists frown on putting lead in lake unless it is encapsulated. I think I'll stick with the concrete, it is so cheap that dropping a few more only costs a few bucks for the concrete and hardware.

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rrick
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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 17:50:08

I'm definitely interested in multiple concrete weights, as some of us don't have a cool $5.2 mil for a gold anchor or the political power to obtain 100 kg of osmium. Now that anything under $5.2 million is game I may go extreme. At the local SCUBA shop was an awesome urethane fabric (da best) 200 lbs lifting bag selling for $180 I could essentially roll from shore trash can castings of concrete multiple times (thinking 3) and setting them better than my current thought of purposely flipping a canoe 5 times with the 5 gallon buckets.

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BCG-Woodbury
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396 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 18:51:30

RRick - The buckets I'm using are 6 Gallon versions of a standard 5 Gallon bucket that I get my grape juice in for making wine. They should hold 2-60 lb. bags or concrete each. I'm imbedding a 1/4" diameter SS loop into each one with 2 ft. 1/4" SS chain through the loop. At the end of the chain goes a 4" SS Ring (made from 1/4"-3/8" SS rod). The 5 buckets will be about 600 lbs. + hardware and chain. We plan to deploy them from out pontoon boat. Hope this is helpful.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4311 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 19:08:50

I think I'd want to use something thicker than 1/4" stainless loops and 1/4" chain. See,s small for something that's going to get yanked and jerked on for months on end.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 19:49:08

Agreed. 1/4" is about minimal for an anchor rode for a C-25, but very dubious for a permanent mooring. Gavlanized chain is recommended for greater strength (stainless is much weaker and will wear faster), and 1/2" is pretty standard for boats up to 25'. The same goes for the attachment points. A swivel is generally recommended, in this case probably attached to the ring (if I understand the configuration).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/05/2012 19:59:54

BCG-Woodbury
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396 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 19:54:11

Hi GaryB - The main chain is 3/8" and is attached to the 1st bucket which has a double 1/4" SS loop in the concrete. The other 4 buckets have the 4" loops on the end of the 1/4" SS chains so they should only see the weight of their bucket (about 80-100 lbs.) The 1st bucket and SS loop will see the entire weight of the system so I'm using the double SS loop in the concrete, 3/8" chain, and a 3/8" SS swivel attached with 3/8" SS Quick Links.

Regards,

Edited by - on

rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 21:51:04

Best is mooring chain. Shackles anywhere on the length.

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5408 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2012 : 21:55:52

You might want to "reinforce" the concrete with lead weights encapsulated fully within the concrete.
May take some doing but get a big slug of lead and drop it into the bucket as you add the concrete (like a concrete cylinder with a lead center).
Another, possibly better solution is, are there any kinds of stone (like granite, quartz, brownstone, gneiss) that is native to Connecticut which has a very high density and is much less buoyant (perhaps 2x or 4x that of concrete)? You could also mix that into the concrete buckets to improve their "weight" underwater...
While lead is toxic, some of these other minerals are not.
Plutonium is probably not an option...

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BCG-Woodbury
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396 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 10:09:31

Hey Bruce - I was just discussing this same subject with my Dad. We have some lead that we need to get rid of. I may put it in the main bucket. As for granite, believe it or not, the density isn't much higher than concrete (2.3 vs. 2.8-3.0) so rather than do that, I'll add some iron scraps in the bottom.

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rrick
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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2012 : 19:13:16

I bought that 250# lift bag and some quikrete so I'm close to casting twin 25 gallon rubbermaid containers. So I'm not troubled with trying to kick off 400# off the dock, can I just submerge the rubbermaid and pour the concrete mix through the water column? I read somewhere to funnel it through a tube. I'll try with a mason jar in a water bucket and report back. I was glad to read submerging the castings after the initial set produces the best cure possible.

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rrick
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261 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 13:22:30

Pouring readymix into a cup underwater didn't make the best concrete, but did solidify. Too much of the powdery cement floated away for me to trust this method.

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BCG-Woodbury
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396 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 19:08:48

RRick - I've poured concrete many ways. I've even made footings with dry bags of ready-mix with water thrown on top. It as set up but I'm sure the structural integrity suffered. If the container is completely sealed, I would just calculate the water required and pour it over the dry concrete mix. Of course, a cement mixer is the preferred method (Harbor Freight has a cheap one). Maybe a rental center? Is there a local concrete plant near by that can dump the left overs into your containers? This is why I've gone with the 5-6 gallon bucket plan. BTW, the lake owners are not allowing me a mooring so I'm SOL on the plan, right now it looks like Knot So Fast will be at the dock for at least this season.

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