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Another head post...

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trptelf
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USA
113 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/07/2012 : 09:45:25

Our new to us this season C25 has a Graco head that flushes dry fine, but doesn't bring in fresh water. The valve is moved to wet flush and the seacock is open at the time of pumping. I am assuming a rebuild of the pump is necessary, but I would rather spend my time on the boat doing anything else than rebuilding a head.

Defender's Graco pump assembly is around $190. A new Jabsco complete head is less than that. The Graco looks nice, fits the space, but the part is more expensive than the complete Jabsco unit.

Any experience out there with Graco vs Jabsco and/or rebuilding heads?

Thanks,
Erin

Bill and Erin
Formerly of Cat25 WK/TR
and Cat25 FK/SR

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 09:54:00

Erin,

Does your boat have a vanity sink across from the head? If so, you'll need to put a plug in the sink to draw water from the seacock.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/07/2012 09:54:13

trptelf
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 10:07:11

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 10:20:47

Jabsco.

I bought a new one on sale about 2 years ago. Everything I have bought on sale for this sailboat was broken and caused more trouble than double the price of the item, after discovering it what way it was defective. I will no longer buy any marine product that is on sale.

I was told my sink drain was the reason the head would not pull water and it made sense. I finally removed the T fitting which excludes the sink line. Still worse, the head would not pull water.

Finally, after hours of research and talking with several people I found someone that knew the problem.

Jabsco send me a new upper gasket/flange/valve assemble. They did not mention that for a period of time they were made improperly ( read: On Sale ) A rubber gasket valve was made with too close a tolerance and caused the valve to stick open. ( no Vacume )

I bought a whole new pump assembly as well as receiving the part from Jabsco. Now everything works properly and I know all about them... I have an extra pump at home I can disassemble and understand.

After about 2 years of confusion.

So.. I recommend you totally plug the sink line and start from there and try to learn exactly what is happening.

I have no experience with the Graco but I would now recommend the Jabsco. Research the writer "Head Mistress" on another forum.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 10:23:38

If the sink plug doesn't solve the problem, I bought a new Jabsco head last year and it works better than any I ever had. My marina manager commented on how well it works. It has a strong pump, and flushes well.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 10:31:37

My Raritan Compact II head draws in water fine, but I never do it. I leave the intake seacock closed all the time, and I keep a cup in the vanity sink. Before flushing, I pump water into the cup and dump it in the toilet. I don't want little seawater beasties fouling up my holding tank. I also don't want to connect my head to the freshwater system due to the possibility of blackwater cross-contamination.

So my advice would be not to worry about head intake - just keep it on "dry" all the time and dump fresh water from the vanity into the toilet.

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/07/2012 10:34:03

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 10:49:40

I too replaced my head last year with a brand new Jabsco unit. On sale it was $159 for a brand new ceramic bowl, pump, everything. The rebuild kit for my existing head's pump was around $20 cheaper, so it made no sense not to replace an almost 30 year old head. I also replaced the sanitation hose and freshwater intake hose.

Great unit. Strong flushing, no odor....works great.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 10:54:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
So my advice would be not to worry about head intake - just keep it on "dry" all the time and dump fresh water from the vanity into the toilet.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Due to concerns about messing around with old plumbing (10, 20 or 30 year-old system?), I have finally, after 6 years of owning my C-25, started to use the head with the holding tank. My marina has a pump-out station that makes it convenient to empty the holding tank. The Admiral is pleased with the increase in civility aboard!

The toilet (brand unknown) flushes fine, and I use a jug of tap water to flush the waste. Based on some previous advice posted here on the Forum which Rick reflects in his comment, and based on my ongoing concerns with really old plumbing, I will not be dealing with the sea-water intake valve any time in the near future. KISS!

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 10:56:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by trptelf
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Erin,

Does your boat have a vanity sink across from the head? If so, you'll need to put a plug in the sink to draw water from the seacock.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks. I do have the sink and it has the strainer in it. Are you suggesting an additional plug?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes. Since the flushwater intake and sink drain go to the same seacock, with the sink drain open, you will be unable to draw water to the toilet as air is getting sucked in through the sink drain. Putting a stopper in the sink will prevent air from getting in the line allowing you to draw water.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 10:59:15

Don, does that need to be a marine grade plug?

Edited by - on

redeye
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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 11:09:09

Another easy way to check the pump is to close the "To Hull", pour water into the sink and then pump the head.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 11:10:31

We are all assuming that is the way yours is plumbed...

again... look at yours and try to figure it out yourself.

Edited by - on

trptelf
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113 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 12:51:39

Yes, I have the traditional plumbing layout you are describing, only I don't have freshwater in the tank yet.

Edited by - on

trptelf
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 12:55:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by trptelf
 Yes, I have the traditional plumbing layout with a Y at the seacock. I'm not sure what you want me to "figure out myself" as I was asking for opinions on a new Jabsco vs purchasing a rebuid kit or new pump for the Graco.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 13:07:46

You may have this set up.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 14:03:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier 
Does your boat have a vanity sink across from the head? If so, you'll need to put a plug in the sink to draw water from the seacock.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My C-25 has a vanity and a new head sharing a single T'd seacock. I never have to plug up my sink to draw water in for the head. Doesn't the T sit below the waterline?

Our Graco head was also dead and I replaced the whole thing (using a Raritan PH-C) because that wasn't much more expensive than upgrading the head from a Graco HE to a HF (or maybe it was GE to GF) and buying the rebuild kit. I was happy with this decision when I did replace the head, the old one was in bad shape and heavily corroded.

However if I were doing it again I'd heavily consider getting a Groco head just to have a quick bolt in replacement. Having said that the Raritan works very nicely, fits the space well, and the price wasn't too shocking.

Farther down my to-do project list is removing the vanity sink and turning that area into a hanging locker.

alex

Edited by - on

trptelf
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 14:25:22

Thanks, everyone. I'm not confused about my set up. I've become quite familiar with the innards of Catalina 25's. But this is my first experience with flushing toilets on board. Ill try plugging the sink again, but i am afraid I need some parts replaced or a new pump or toilet. Alex, we both have fin keels. Thanks for your input and when you refit your vanity to a locker send me pictures. I have an inboard and no storage, and haven't found a need yet for both sinks.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 18:42:57

The toilet could have just lost it's prime. Try this, with the seacock closed, fill both the vanity sink and toilet bowl with water then do a wet flush.

Edited by - on

szymek
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Canada
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 20:07:04

If all fails... replace the head. :-) There won't be much diff in rebuild kit. I got Jabsco head last year. One of better investments in last few years - I'm super happy with it!

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 21:16:07

When I first bought my boat it had an aroma that would fade some after you opened up the boat but never go completely away. If you slept on the boat it was bothersome. I finally figured out the PO hadn't dumped the holding tank before he sold me the boat. Once I dumped the tank I immediately noticed an improvement in the aroma.

After dumping the tank I used it a few times sucking water out of the bay. The aroma came back even worse. Even using deodorants didn't completely prevent the aroma.

Eventually I had to replace the head. I read on this forum to use fresh water instead of bay water. The new unit has never had saltwater go through it and I've never had a problem with the aroma. Not even the slightest aroma after the boat has been closed up.

BTW... I never had to plug the sink to get it to flush. It always primed and flushed until the joker valve went bad.

Unfortunately, since Ike destroyed the pump out station and the marina did not replace it, I don't have a place to dump my holding tank anymore so I don't use the head anymore. I've toyed with getting a bucket of clumping cat litter and using that in an emergency. Just scoop and dump in a garbage bag when leaving the boat. Haven't done it yet!

Also, my '89 quit sucking water a couple of years ago. I finally bought a new Jabsco and it worked right from the first pump.

Edited by - GaryB on 05/07/2012 21:19:28

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2012 : 04:58:35

Following up on previous suggestions. Failure to pump can stem from several causes. Suggestions to stop or fill the sink should be your first check. After that a new head is a big plus but there are other options to try if that is not your immediate goal. (1) dry gaskets - disassemble the pump (remove 4-5 screws), add a little silicon grease to the rubber gaskets, and reassemble. I did this when our 1-yr old Jabsco failed to pump and it worked first try. Cost - about 15 minutes. Haven't needed to do it again over the past three years but do add HeadLube beginning and end of each season. (2) failed Joker valve - The rubber becomes less flexible over time and will not close properly. An easy replacement. Cost ~$15 plus 15-20 minutes work. When deciding, however, the Admiral's vote is probably the determining factor. Good luck.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/08/2012 : 04:59:17

The other things I learned about working on mine.. Jasbco

The head costs $150 ( on Sale )

A new pump assembly costs $85.

I new valve gasket kit costs $65. They only sell the full kit.

Get a Long Screwdriver. (or angled one )

Crack pipe lighter ( cigar lighter ) the lines are easy to work with once you warm them up. dip them in hot water also. nutdrivers on the hose clamps, much easier than screwdriver.

rubber gloves .. silicone paste on the gaskets.

it was pretty easy to just change out the pump. 4 screws, 3 lines. Try not to tighten them down to tight as you can crack the plastic.

Anyhoo... good luck. I'm just posting cause I just did mine and I can remember the details right now..

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 05/08/2012 : 05:40:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 After dumping the tank I used it a few times sucking water out of the bay. The aroma came back even worse. Even using deodorants didn't completely prevent the aroma.

...I read on this forum to use fresh water instead of bay water. The new unit has never had saltwater go through it and I've never had a problem with the aroma. Not even the slightest aroma after the boat has been closed up.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To avoid the "low tide" smell, I fill a couple of leftover antifreeze jugs with water, add an ounce or so of head deodorant, then use that for flush water.

Not only does it eliminate the low tide smell, it simplifies the routine when using the facilities. Instead of getting on my hands and knees to open the seacock, flipping the pump lever to draw water, pumping to fill the bowl, use the head, flushing the toilet then flipping the lever to pump it dry, and finally, closing the seacock, I simply pour a bit of the jug mixture into the bowl, then flush it down. It's so easy guests can use the facilities without a NASA instruction manual or extensive pre-use training.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 05/08/2012 : 06:23:28

Before I replaced my head, the smell was pretty awful. Afterwards, there was no smell until the end of the summer, when it began to return. Before winterizing it, I removed the cleanout plug and ran a brush through it to clean it out, and this spring, the smell is gone again. I'm thinking the smell is residual material that isn't cleaned out by normal bowl brushing. On a smelly head, try cleaning it out through the cleanout plug in the base of the toilet.

Edited by - on

trptelf
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Response Posted - 05/08/2012 : 10:27:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glivs
 When deciding, however, the Admiral's vote is probably the determining factor. Good luck.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What does this mean? ;)

Erin

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 05/08/2012 : 10:49:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by trptelf
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glivs
 When deciding, however, the Admiral's vote is probably the determining factor. Good luck.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What does this mean? ;)

Erin
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Erin,

In this predominantly male forum, we are the captains of our vessels, with some of us referring to our significant others with the term of endearment/title of "Admiral", a higher rank than a mere captain, and whose orders must be obeyed.

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