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Rigging and launching a Cat 250 WB

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Panzer
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Initially Posted - 06/18/2012 : 19:00:28

I am looking to purchase my first sailboat. It will be a water ballast boat - the Mac 26X, Cat 250 WB, or a Hunter 240 or260. I plan to keep it on the trailer at home. It will truly be a trailer sailor. My questions are:

(1) Since the Cat 250 WB sits fairly high on its trailer, how easy is it to launch and retrieve the boat?

(2) Once I have learned to rig the boat for the water or travel, how much time will it take 2 of us to ready it for the water?

I really prefer the Cat 250 WB, but I have been getting bad vibes about the time to rig it and have found very little info on launching/retrieving it. Therefore, I am leaning towards the the Mac 26X by default. That said, I care nothing about the speed of the Mac 26X. It has gobs of headroom and is promoted as easy to launch and rig. HELP!!!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2012 : 21:17:24

Welcome! Have you sailed before? What will be your sailing venue? The Mac 26X and the C-250 are very different boats--the Mac is more of a powerboat with a mast and sail, and the C-250 is a sailboat, period. A 25' sailboat that can be launched and retrieved on a ramp will give up something in headroom and rigging ease if it can actually sail well in anything bigger than a five mile long inland lake.

But of course, this is not a Mac forum...

All that said, if you plan to rig, launch, sail, retrieve, and de-rig the boat every day you plan to use her, I think you'll be disappointed with any 25-26 footer. The time getting ready to sail, and to go home, will be measured in hours. For true "trailer-sailing", I recommend something 22' or smaller--the difference is substantial. A Catalina 22, for example, can probably be rigged and launched in 30-45 minutes without breathing hard... A C-250 will be double that. And then double it again for the retrieval/de-rigging process. This can seriously compromise a "nice day on the water." The Hunters and Macs have somewhat lighter masts, but are still projects. Make sure you go through the process before you spring for a trailer-sailer.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/18/2012 : 21:43:22

Dave's advice is sound. We have a wing keel, and when we used to day sail it, I doubt that we ever once broke two hours for rigging and launching, 2-1/2 was more the norm. Recovery and rigging for trailering again took us about two hours or so. We did that about half a dozen times before we looked for a marina. Now, if you are somewhere that you can leave the boat rigged and just drop it into the water, that would be a much different experience. But if you're planning on day sailing and rigging each time, expect that you're going to spend at least four hours between rigging & unrigging each time. The water ballast is somewhat easier to launch I believe, but I'll let the the WB guys weigh in. I'm pretty sure it takes almost as long to launch as a WK.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 07:19:06

It also depends on how long you will sail. If one day at a time then I would go for something like a Catalina 18. With day sailing you don't need a cabin, head, electric lights, etc and the rigging takes longer. But if you intend to launch and sail for 3-5 days or longer then the C250 makes more sense.

You could also start smaller and then, if you like sailing, move up and consider a slip. Having the boat in the water is a big plus in my opinion.

Edited by - on

dubedoo
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 08:06:56

Hi Panzer,

I have a water ballast 250 and trailer sailed a few years before getting a slip. My experience:

1. if you have a long ramp that isn't busy, deep water and don't have to use the trailer extension...it's fairly easy to launch and retrieve. I think that it's real critical to make sure that the boat is centered on the trailer and it can take me a couple trys loading the boat to accomplish this. Also in retrieving you have the water ballast in the tank, the boat is sitting deeper in the water so you need more water depth and to back into the water a little further to retrieve/load (unless you blow the water out before hand - thats another story). In my opinion it takes a little more water than some people would think to launch/load the water ballast. Notice how the trailer bunks curve up in back....to follow the curvature of the hull...the boat needs to float over the ends of those bunks

2. figure a good 2 hours to rig & launch and 2 hours to retrieve & unrig....and that doesn't include the time visiting with the friendly people coming by with questions and comments or wait time at the ramp. It's nice to have a 2nd person around but my experience is the above times apply to one person rigging or two people rigging. Advice: if the 2nd person is the wife, let her go shopping during most of the rigging unrigging or you may turn her off to sailing real fast.

Tried to answer your questions but ditto the above comments by others. If you could make arrangements to watch or help someone with the specific boat launch, retrieve, rig, unrig....the first hand knowledge/experience would be invaluable.

Steve C250 wb #702

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 08:35:15

I will only make a few comments on this because I need to lower and raise the mast on my C25 every time I go out and then repeat the process on the way in. However, take this free advice for what is worth because 1) I do not trailer my boat, 2) I do not own a C250.

I think if you set systems up so that you can rig and unrig your boat, that portion could take as little as ½ an hour, maybe less. It takes me about 15 minutes to lower the mast, then raise it back up, replace the boom, tighten the shrouds, feed the mainsail into the track, attach the halyard. I do all of that while the boat is in motion down the canal. I am done before we reach the main channel into the bay. Is it fun, no. But, I can keep the boat docked at my house and work on it any time I want.

Here is my process, doing it by myself at the dock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33VCObNroY

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 08:46:33

Davy's last name, by the way, is Houdini.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 09:04:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Davy's last name, by the way, is Houdini.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You should hear the comments from the powerboaters as they come down my canal....most start with.....WTF how did he get that thing back here...

Edited by - Davy J on 06/19/2012 09:05:43

John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 12:43:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 I will only make a few comments on this because I need to lower and raise the mast on my C25 every time I go out and then repeat the process on the way in. However, take this free advice for what is worth because 1) I do not trailer my boat, 2) I do not own a C250.

I think if you set systems up so that you can rig and unrig your boat, that portion could take as little as ½ an hour,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">not gonna happen if you're going from the highway tot he ramp. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> maybe less. It takes me about 15 minutes to lower the mast, then raise it back up, replace the boom, tighten the shrouds, feed the mainsail into the track, attach the halyard. I do all of that while the boat is in motion down the canal. I am done before we reach the main channel into the bay. Is it fun, no. But, I can keep the boat docked at my house and work on it any time I want.

Here is my process, doing it by myself at the dock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33VCObNroY
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 13:25:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">not gonna happen if you're going from the highway to the ramp. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Concur. Admittedly we only did this about half a dozen times before we decided to move into a marina. I know Paul rigs & launches JD every time they go sailing, plus he's got a WB, so I'd ask his opinion.

When I had my 15' catamaran, by the end of the summers, I could rig & launch in 20-25 minutes easily, same thing to unrig & trailer. A 25' boat is an order of magnitude more difficult to launch. I think if you worked at it hard, had two people to coordinate your movements, a checklist to work from, and lots of practice, you could probably get the launch time down to around 75-90 minutes. I think our best time ever was about 2:15 to launch, and around 2:00 to recover.

Edited by - delliottg on 06/19/2012 14:51:15

Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 14:23:41

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 14:42:42

Launching and rerieval is no big deal. Prep for launch or retrieval is a couple of hours if the boat is trailed any distance.

We take JD out for multi night trips to get the most return on the effort.

Where you plan on sailing most impacts boat choice.
P
So where.

Paul

Edited by - on

Panzer
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 18:58:20

Many thanks to all who responded - Stinkpotter, delliottg, Nautiduck, dubedoo, Davy J John Russell, and britinusa - your input into my search for a boat may have saved me much grief and $$$$. Anyone else who cares to comment is quite welcome. My wife and I had our hearts set on a C250WB. We have read all we could about the different water ballast boats in the 24-26 foot range and recognized the C250WB to be the best of the bunch. The Hunter 260 may be a good one too, but is too wide to legally trailer - and knowing my luck, the tape measure will come out if there is ever an accident. I am not a fan of the speed aspect of the Mac 26X, nor its sailing qualities, or lightweight construction.

We live in Springfield, IL - not a major sailing area. Lake Springfield gets shallow every summer. I would guess the ramps are made for motor boats. We have a yacht club, but my wife and I are not the yacht club types so their facilities are not available. Dry docking a boat at the marina is about $160/mo. and there is not a sail boat to be found there. All this points to the need for a trailerable sailboat that we could take home with us after each use. Plus, we would like to go to other lakes too. We have a couple of Corps of Engineers lakes within 100 miles of us and then there is Lake Michigan 200 miles away and the Illinois and Mississippi Rivers too, but they get shallow as well unless you stay in the navigation channels with all the monster sized coal and grain barges. Most of our sailing will be day sailing with a few overnight stays.

We are inexperienced sailors, having taken a few lessons on Lake Springfield in J15's and we rented a Colgate 26 on Kentucky Lake. We would like a cabin for those overnight trips and to just get out of the sun. The Colgate's cabin was bad.

So what do you guys suggest in terms of a boat? Stinkpotter suggested a Cat22. I will have to explore it more thoroughly, as it has not been on our radar screen. I have considered the Hunter 23.5/240 and even the various Macgregors. Whatever we get has to have a swing keel for the shallow lakes we will be on and easy to rig. We have 4WD Chevy Tahoe with the 5.3 liter engine, so the tow vehicle is not a factor. We would never take a boat out that requires 1-2 hours to rig and de-rig - ain't gonna happen! It is time to narrow down our choices so your input is extremely valuable. P.S. - my wife is the sailor at heart. I have only come around the last couple of years. My interest was always in aviation, but the costs grounded me.

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zeil
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 19:18:57

Your considerations should include the ownership or having access to an adequate towing vehicle for the boats you outline...

We use a one ton Ram diesel for towing our C250 water ballast, take on average 2 hours for set-up and the same for take down. More with coffee breaks... However, now as free lance retirees we either find a slip for the summer or explore during longer trips.

Just as a matter of interest we, the-two-of-us, lived aboard our C250 WB for an entire year and followed the sun around our continent by road and water. Yes... we're still married

But... with a little energy and experience nothing stops anyone from weekend sailing

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 19:37:06

I'd definitely suggest the C22. It's easily towed with your truck, as mentioned the setup and take down would not be too bad and it has a cabin.

The cabin is small but with a tarp over the boom at anchor/dock you can extend the cabin area and get by for a night or two. It will be like camping but way better than sleeping on the ground in a tent.

Go to this guys site and spend the next couple of days reading up on what you can do with a C22. He's got an awesome site and has done about every mod you might want to attempt. I love reading about his yearly sailing trip up and down the East Coast. http://www.chipford.com/

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 20:55:27

The C-22 doesn't have a stand-up cabin or separate head, but a couple can definitely overnight on it--as said, like camping. A Tahoe is definitely an adequate tow vehicle--only marginal for a C-250. (A Suburban would be better.) One of the best parts is you can get a nice C-22 for $3-6K and sell it for the same amount almost any time if you want to move up... It's one of the best-known boats, and best values, ever made (after the Sunfish).

Others in the category are the Precision 18 and 23, Catalina/Capri 18, and O'Day's 19, 192, 22, and their older 19' Mariner.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/19/2012 21:01:00

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 22:20:27

Hmmm, I had a C22, great boat but not sure I'd want to rig it every time I sailed. For frequent launching and retrieving I'd go smaller - like a Catalina/Capri 18 or a Daysailer. If you want a bit more cabin look at the West Wight Potters. Basically a key for me would be that you can simply grab the mast and raise it by hand.

If I recall I have seen a trailer-sailor that had a hinged mast. It allowed you to leave the boom on along with the mainsail. To launch just lift the hinged part up and secure it.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 22:24:45

Found it. Sweet setup.

[url="http://www.com-pacyachts.com/mastendr-mastraising.html"]Com-Pac Yachts[/url]

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/19/2012 22:25:56

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 22:54:43

Now I want a Com-Pac 35...

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/20/2012 : 19:42:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 I'd definitely suggest the C22. It's easily towed with your truck, as mentioned the setup and take down would not be too bad and it has a cabin.

The cabin is small but with a tarp over the boom at anchor/dock you can extend the cabin area and get by for a night or two. It will be like camping but way better than sleeping on the ground in a tent.

Go to this guys site and spend the next couple of days reading up on what you can do with a C22. He's got an awesome site and has done about every mod you might want to attempt. I love reading about his yearly sailing trip up and down the East Coast. http://www.chipford.com/
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This boat is sold but there are some good pictures of the interior to give you an idea of the amenities you'd get on C22. This boat shows you what you can find in good shape for a good price if you just take your time and look at a lot of boats.

http://sailingtexas.com/201201/scatalina22464.html

Edited by - GaryB on 06/20/2012 19:44:31

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/20/2012 : 20:18:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 Now I want a Com-Pac 35...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't think it has a hinged mast. (...or a trailer.)

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 06/20/2012 : 20:52:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I don't think it has a hinged mast. (...or a trailer.)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, I'm hoping my next boat doesn't require either.

Edited by - on

Panzer
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Response Posted - 06/20/2012 : 20:57:15

Keep the comments coming. I am profiting from it all. What about launching and retrieving a C22? Can it be done without getting the Tahoe's rear wheels too far in the water? Our ramps in Illinois often are pretty slimy with moss and crud. And one fellow had a red C22 that had problems with the swing keel pivot. Is the pivot and/or cable a weak part of the boat? How about stability on the highway with a single axle trailer?

Panzer

Edited by - on

jking
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Response Posted - 06/21/2012 : 15:30:15

My 250 WB is for sale, incl. outboard, sails, and trailer. I love the boat, but am downsizing to an 18 foot catboat. The 250 is a better sailing boat than the MacGregor, and the headroom has not been an issue for us.

We have trailered from TN to the Chesapeake twice, and to the gulf coast once. Set up is about 2 hours, but I do it alone and I am slow and meticulous; could do it quicker if I really needed to.

If you want to talk to me about the boat, call me at 615-478-5906, or email me at jking@radalliance.com

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/21/2012 : 18:19:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Panzer
 Keep the comments coming. I am profiting from it all. What about launching and retrieving a C22? Can it be done without getting the Tahoe's rear wheels too far in the water? Our ramps in Illinois often are pretty slimy with moss and crud. And one fellow had a red C22 that had problems with the swing keel pivot. Is the pivot and/or cable a weak part of the boat? How about stability on the highway with a single axle trailer?

Panzer
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Any of the boats with a swing keel will require periodic maintenance and repair. Catalina did make the C22 with a fin keel and a wing keel but most are swing keels. The maintenance of these items are not hat hard of you have any mechanical abilities at all.

I can't answer the question of getting the Tahoe's rear wheels in the water. That depends on the tongue of the trailer, the angle of the ramp, etc.... I swing keel C25 will only be harder rather than easier on all of these issues.

If the trailer is in good condition it should handle the boat without any major issues while towing. I tandem axle trailer will always be more stable by design. My dad and I towed a 17 tri-hull on a single axle trailer for years and probably 10k miles and never had any problems with stability.

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Jack Schafer
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Response Posted - 06/21/2012 : 21:05:56

I don't think rigging a 22' is that much faster than the 250. you get so much more from the 250. Still takes 1 1/2 to 2 hrs. to rig. With experience you can cut that time.

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