Association Forum - Honda 2.3 as back-up mounted to C250 swimladder

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Honda 2.3 as back-up mounted to C250 swimladder

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

Canada
1316 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/21/2012 : 16:48:20

Now that the floatation tubes on our 7.5 ft dinghy are complete the next question is should we consider the standard 15" short leg or the 5" longer 20" shaft. We are leaning towards the air-cooled 2.3 hp Honda

Our dinghy's stern overall is 16" so a short leg would be ideal but... what if we could also use the outboard as back-up as well on our C250 in case of a main engine failure.

1) Has anyone experimented with actually running a small outboard as back-up from the C250 swim-ladder
2) Could it be done... pro's con's
4) Would a long leg at 20" be more advantageous
5) Other than hitting bottom sooner and some storage considerations would you prefer the short-leg version.
6) Would a 20" long leg affect performance on a 15" stern? Create torque, twist or does not work well...
6) There is only a $20.00 price difference between 15" or 20"
7) Canadian cost for a new 2.3 Honda is quoted at $1129.00 plus tax

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

Edited by - zeil on 06/21/2012 16:50:14

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 11:14:35

Okay guys, obviously not many of you have made some kind of provision, other than BoatUS or similar and/or keeping your primary outboard in top condition, to store or run a back-up outboard.

Suspending anything from the C-250 swim-ladder is not the best nor convenient. But... until sometime later this year the plan is to extend a railing from the starboard stern stanchion to the fuel locker stanchion to store an outboard motor. The shaft of the 30 lbs motor will be alongside the main outboard.

Then, by fabricating something or other the outboard could be run from the swim-ladder, which seems to be the only location available.

Since both sterns, are approximately 16.5 inch I've decided to proceed getting the 20" long-shaft

Help... suggestions, comments, ideas, recommendations and any help is appreciated and very welcome...

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 14:44:23

How come you get to have .3 more hp than I do?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 15:06:44

Henk, I've thought about this several times, and my only solution thus far has been sort of an upside down gun rack that engaged the rungs of the boarding ladder. The rack would ride with the engine out of the water, but suspended on the boarding ladder. To put in use, you'd raise the gun rack with the OB on it, lower the ladder and then lower the rack onto the ladder again, but now the OB shaft would be deep enough in the water to be effective.

I've noodled on a folding gun rack, so that you wouldn't have to raise or lower the OB, you'd just have to fold it over the bottom of the ladder as you lowered it. I need to draw that up for it to make sense. The OB would have to be on some sort of slide so it could move up as it folded over the top (bottom) of the ladder, and the ladder would need to be on a block & tackle so you could control the lowering, and ease the raising.

Did any of that make sense? I don't have any drawings of this, it's only in my head so far.

I traded for a new 5hp OB for our dinghy, but it's a short shaft. I still wouldn't want to have it on the stern of the boat just because of the weight, but I also don't ever want to have to raise or lower it, again because of the weight (and my new-to-me iffy back).

Edited by - delliottg on 06/26/2012 15:07:54

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 16:17:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 How come you get to have .3 more hp than I do?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Canadian hp.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 16:36:50

Random thoughts:

For me the swim ladder is an escape route if something goes very bad (fire for instance) on the boat. That transom cutout and ladder are the exit to the dink or another boat. I don't want an outboard in the way.

If the main OB goes bad then mount the little Honda on the dink and use the dink to tow the C250.

Have 300' of anchor rode so you can anchor in fairly deep water while waiting for help.

If the boat gets into a dangerous situation with a dead OB then get in the dink and get away. The boat can be replaced.

We have BoatUS. I'd call them first.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/26/2012 16:39:11

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 20:40:13

Henk, we were at the boat today and it looks to me like you could do some sort of mount to the port of the ladder. There is a little open space there.

Here is a photo of a mount, probably too large, but the kind of thing I was thinking about. A craftsman like you could probably create one out of plywood for a small OB. Then you could have the little OB mounted there all the time (tilted up) and it would be in an easier place to remove and transition to the dink.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/27/2012 20:41:17

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 20:42:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> quote:Originally posted by Stinkpotter

How come you get to have .3 more hp than I do?

Canadian hp. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> and Canadian $$$

Thank you guys for your input...
Agree Randy that the swim-ladder should be free and clear at all times as an emergency escape route and if nothing else just for everyday convenience, swimming, clambering on board etc. We would rather not but can't seem to come up with a viable alternative other than what you mentioned.

Our plan is during the month of August to explore the Princess Louise Inlet north of Vancouver, BC. It has an average of 984-1312 ft depth with sheer cliff faces plunging straight into the water on both sides and offering little in the way of hiding, running or anchoring in most places. Towing with the dinghy is always an option. Seems to me, although I don't have experience, mounting even a small outboard on the back of a bobbering dinghy in adverse conditions does not seem a likeable or simple task.

For those reasons I would like to explore David's brainstorming ideas... I'd love to see some sketches since I don't seem to completely catch on. Anything will do...

What if some simple motor mounting bracket could be attached/suspended from the port stern stanchion and swung into place to be connected to the swim-ladder when the spare is required to drive the boat.

Please keep ideas, suggestions, concepts and far out thoughts coming... it is much appreciated!!

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1316 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 21:32:47

Excellent Randy... I'll work on it. Seems, at first sight, a likable solution
We'll keep you updated. I'm getting the BD2.3D LCHC type 20" long shaft Honda motor tomorrow and am planning to bring the boat home sometime in the next few weeks.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 22:29:55

I had another thought while reading through this again. What if you built a mount that bolted right onto the rudder? Obviously you'd probably want to reinforce the gudgeons, maybe even add a third to support the extra weight. It would be fairly simple to create a bolt on mount, and your new OB is pretty light. You could possibly support the extra weight with a cantilever off of the rear rail. You could use pulleys and weights on the cantilever to deal with turning the rudder but continue to support the extra weight.

I'll try to draw up both of my ideas so you can see what I'm talking about.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 07:16:58

What about just removing the large motor and installing the dink motor in it's place? The 15" shaft is going to be short, but it might work in a pinch. My motor mount can be lowered one step more than is useful with a 25" prop shaft, but that might make a 15" work. It isn't ideal to pull the large motor while you are out on the water, but in an emergency I think that it could be done. Obviously you'd want to have a safety line to help. It would be ideal if the boom could be used as a crane, but it doesn't hang out over the transom.

I bought a used Honda 2hp motor and got it with the 15" shaft for two reasons. One is that it is easier to store, the other is that it'll make it a lot easier to beach the dinghy without fouling the prop. I don't have any real experience though, I've only used my dinghy once playing around on the lake.

The reality is that my Honda motor isn't on my sailboat all that often. From a safety point of view it would be nice to leave it on the stern pulpit at all times. On the other hand the boat doesn't need more weight on the stern (maybe the C-250 is better in this regard) and I don't want my 25lb motor walking off.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 07:23:17

The rudder and ladder ideas have promise but I like the concept of the OB being attached to the hull. In adverse conditions it seems the best structure to have between the boat and the wailing Honda doing its best to fight wave/water/tide action.

I like the attachment to the port side of the ladder because it could both act as your emergency OB and would put the Honda low for easy transfer to the dink. Another option would be to build a bracket that spans the ladder (but doesn't touch it) and connects to the hull. Then hang the Honda off the stern stanchion on a block & tackle arrangement and guide it to the bracket as it is lowered. This bracket could be mounted to the hull using heavy duty pintels/gudgeons for easy on/off.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

Members Avatar

USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 16:18:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 What about just removing the large motor and installing the dink motor in it's place?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Alex, I like your creativity and this is a great place for this type of discussion.
I have a Honda 8 and I need 2 to remove it. In an emergency, that might be hard, plus where are you going to put it? It could be dangerous to leave in the cockpit. And would be difficult to put below. Unless you are thinking to toss overboard!
I like Randy's idea re towing boat with dinghy or set anchor. 1000+ft for Zeil won't work here. As we can see, its most important to have a game plan but do all the testing beforehand.
SteveA

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2012 : 15:36:06

I was thinking that the large motor would get mounted on the stern pulpit where the dink motor was sitting. It's not ideal at all (it's a big motor to put there), but it might work in an emergency.

I like the idea of towing from the dinghy, I'll have to try that out sometime just to see if it works. That would require at least two crew members though, one to operate the dinghy and one to steer the sailboat.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2012 : 15:52:35

I've been towed once by a dinghy. It actually went pretty well.

I don't know if it'd be possible to do it by yourself, but I think possibly. You could tie up tight to the port quarter (with the dink's starboard quarter) with lines run to the port bow & starboard stern cleats to add some control. I've read about it being done with a hard dink, it might be more difficult with an inflatable. You'd need some way to either control or simply center up the rudder on the bigger boat.

I think I could get my boat close to my marina with this arrangement, but getting it into my slip would be tough, unless I waited for slack tide. I'd probably look at getting the boat tied up somewhere close then recruit someone to drive the main boat while you towed from the front.

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1316 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2012 : 21:53:30

Finished the prototype a little earlier today... it still needs a couple of coats of paint and the leather wrapped around the 1/4 SS ready rod needs to be glued in place.

For the time being we'll store the motor, when not in use, below decks until sometime this fall when we'll have a little time to add some stainless railings from which the motor can nicely be suspended on the stern and out-of-the-way .

The motor mound should work just fine and is intended to be used as an emergency back-up motor.

Here are some images...

After trying several ways and angles, this seems to be the best position. We've used 1" plywood plus a 1" plywood backing plate glued and screwed in place.

The swim-ladder stops secures the motor mount

You'll notice that both motor mounts are approximately at the same level

No need to remove the motor mount when the swim ladder is in use. The motor mount nicely clears the hull by about 1/4" and can be left in place for the entire trip.

1/4" SS ready rod U bolt with large washers and wing-nuts are used to secure the mount to the swim-ladder

To protect the ladder the ready rod is wrapped with leather wrappings scrounged from Johanna's old purse. It needs to be glued in place

The motor is able to turn a full 360 degrees... we'll have to try it for ease from the cockpit while underway, but it should be okay...

The motor is slightly angled... it could be adjusted if required...
This way we were able to obtain maximum depth without touching the rung of the swim-ladder with the engine housing.

Close-up detail... notice the motor just clearing the rung. The mount is wide enough to allow for shifting the motor to port or starboard if required...

Another view of the angle of the mounting bracket...

Motor in reverse and backing up... come to think of it, I may have to add one more bracket on the bottom of the mount to prevent kick-up

Detail of motor clearing the swim-ladder.

Edited by - zeil on 07/25/2012 21:58:17

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2012 : 22:01:17

Wow, nicely done!

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2012 : 02:59:43

Henk, our Suzuki 2.5hp outboard was stored on a mount attached to the Mast Crutch post. However the mount was made out of ply and failed after a couple of years. Not wanting to delay our trip manufacturing a new one, I just mounted the engine on the port outside rail of the catbird seat. It was happy to hang there, to the point where I might put a nice mount there.

Besides, it will offset the weight of my new cookware set

Paul

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2012 : 08:01:07

Very nice implementation. This gives me something to think about before installing my new ladder on my C-25.

Some friends with a Columbia 22 were having engine trouble and I loaned them my Honda BF2 last weekend. It not only got them in and out of docks nicely, but it pushed them for 12 miles when we had extremely light winds. It'll be good to have a way to use it as a backup on my C-25 too.

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1316 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2012 : 17:05:09

Just one last detail not to be overlooked... that is to lock or tie the swim-ladder latch securely to prevent accidental lowering of the ladder with motor attached

Not sure if the motor will hit the water but the shaft and hull will certainly sustain damage.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2012 : 17:10:53

Nice! I like that it puts the outboard low so it is an easy transfer to the dinghy.

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1316 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2012 : 22:07:29

The swim-ladder emergency motor mount will get its test during the upcoming August 3-20th, Princess Louisa cruise. After the trip we'll replace it with teak or some other durable material. Unfortunately the mount is located too low and the motor can't be tipped due to the location of the second rung.

Paul... since the earlier C-250 models lack the port/starboard catbird seats I'm planning to add some SS tubing from the starboard stern stanchion to the fuel-tank stern rail to accommodate and store the 2.3 hp next to the 8 hp outboard. For the trip we'll try to find some temp storage solutions even risking having to move our dishes to port side....

Edited by - zeil on 07/28/2012 22:14:47

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1316 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2012 : 09:55:37

Using the same motor mount bracket to store the motor on the swim-ladder... not ideal but it works. The motor mount covers and secures the latch preventing accidental dumping of the swim-ladder

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.