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running downwind with high waves

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blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/11/2012 : 13:00:31

something "new" happened to me last week, i was anchored in a bay with a friend (she's a expert windsurfer but this was her first sailboat ride) at anchor the wind kept getting worst (must have been close to 15-25kts, a boat even chased anchor) after a while we had to return to the marina as planned so once out of the bay i just opened the genoa and went on a broad reach towards the marina about 2M away, i've done running before without any problem but this time it was different, the wind was blowing for quite some time now and it built a fetch on the lake

(lake champlain is about 110M long N-S by 14M wide E-W, wind mostly come from the south)

so the waves coming at us where about 4-5' high, non breaking for the big ones but the thing i didn't like was that they where so close to one another but by batch, so we're broad reaching, things are moving but it's ok, then suddenly the boat is almost thrown sideways by a wave, it leans to about 45 degrees, then, once the wave passed, it tilted 45 degrees on the other side, it would do that 4-5 times in a row, then it would calm down for 1-2 minutes and we would see those waves coming at us again, if they'd been more spaced it would have been ok but they where hammering us quickly, it felt at times that we where just thrown about (maybe it's my lack of experience in those conditions that gave me this impression?) at one point i did what we do when we want to take back control, i reduced sail so i took 2-3 turns on the furler and my speed dropped from 5.8kts to 4.4kts, i didn't feel it helped as the problem was with the waves, at some point i was turning the boat to get the waves directly on the stern while they pounded and resumed my course towards the marina between the salvos...

i'm still wondering what could have i done differently (or what would you do?) in those conditions

1984 C25 FK/SR #4593
Lake Champlain

Edited by - blanik on 08/11/2012 16:59:22

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 13:58:27

You don't say whether you were under mainsail and jib or only the jib, and, not being there we can only guess, but generally you did what I would have done. Usually, when you sense a lack of control it helps to slow the boat down. Also, in this case it appears the waves from astern were smacking the transom and trying to knock her sideways. In addition, when waves approach from astern, they lift the stern, and the boat begins to slide down the face of the wave as each wave slides under it. Boat speed increases dramatically, and the boat races to the bottom of the wave like a surfboard, but when it reaches the bottom of the trough, the boat stops. If the boat gets sideways to the wave, the boat wallows there, and the next wave rolls it over.

If you're having trouble maintaining control, I'd suggest you start the engine, take down all sails, and run dead down wind under enough power to keep her moving when she reaches the bottom of each trough. Don't let her stop there. As long as you're running downwind, you shouldn't have a problem with prop cavitation. Just don't let the boat get sideways to the waves. Take them squarely on the stern. A C25, under power and bare poles, and running downwind, with a helmsman keeping her square to the waves, can take a whole lot worse conditions than that.

Edit: Also, if you can get into the lee of a shoreline or an island, it will tame the waves greatly. If you get to your destination, but can't safely make the turn into your harbor without getting sideways to the waves and risking rolling over, then stay out, and keep running downwind until the conditions abate.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/11/2012 14:23:38

blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 16:00:34

i was under my 135 genoa only, when i rolled it 2 turns i lost a knot but it didn't felt more comfortable, i think i should have left it all open, as it pulled me away from the wave thus making them hit less hard but while in there i didn't notice if it made a difference, i was busy going on deck to get the dock lines to the cockpit and putting the fenders... i wouldn't say the waves pushed us to the point of locking us sideways to a coming wave but the boat was definitively leaning "downhill" on each side of the waves...

what i'd like to know is what are the usual methods of dealing with close, high waves like this? it almost felt like chop

Edited by - on

waterbaby
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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 16:07:50

Blanik, I can't help you with this one but just wanted to say thanks for posting it so that the rest of us can contemplate this type of event and hopefully learn from it. Also, sounds like you made it back safely and I'm really glad about that.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 16:19:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blanik
 what i'd like to know is what are the usual methods of dealing with close, high waves like this? it almost felt like chop
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Keep the stern of the boat square to the waves, and keep the boat moving when it is at the bottom of the trough. Don't let the waves strike the boat on it's quarter. Taking the waves on the boat's quarter is what causes the boat to "lean downhill on each side of the waves...."

Edited by - on

blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 16:57:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Keep the stern of the boat square to the waves, and keep the boat moving when it is at the bottom of the trough. Don't let the waves strike the boat on it's quarter. Taking the waves on the boat's quarter is what causes the boat to "lean downhill on each side of the waves...."

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i've read numerous times that it's better to take the waves at a slight angle from the back instead of full astern but it did felt more comfortable when i did, the slightest quarter angle would really roll the boat...

what about the speed should one try to go as fast as possible?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 17:26:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blanik
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Keep the stern of the boat square to the waves, and keep the boat moving when it is at the bottom of the trough. Don't let the waves strike the boat on it's quarter. Taking the waves on the boat's quarter is what causes the boat to "lean downhill on each side of the waves...."

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i've read numerous times that it's better to take the waves at a slight angle from the back instead of full astern but it did felt more comfortable when i did, the slightest quarter angle would really roll the boat...

what about the speed should one try to go as fast as possible?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think it's more comfortable to take the waves on the quarter as long as you can, but as the waves build and steepen, it eventually becomes dangerous to do so. At that point, you must take the waves squarely on the stern, and you must not allow the boat to turn it's beam to the waves at any time.

Regarding speed, if you take the waves squarely on the stern, the boat will surf down the face of the wave. When it hits the bottom of the trough, the pointed bow, which has less buoyancy than the rest of the boat, might bury itself in the back of the previous wave. If 3-4 feet of the bow buries itself at high speed, then there is a risk that the boat will pitchpole, i.e., flip end-over-end. Thus too much speed is dangerous. If you are under bare poles and powered by the motor, you can usually regulate your speed adequately. If you are sailing downwind in 30-40 kts of wind, you will run too fast downwind, and a pitchpole is possible. If the conditions are such that you cannot control your speed in any other way, then a drogue will help keep your stern pointed at the waves, and will also help keep the speed down. You can either buy a factory made drogue, or, in an emergency, you can fashion one by tying an anchor and some interior cushions to a long line, such as an anchor line, tie it to a stern cleat and drag it behind the boat. It will slow the boat and hold its stern square to the waves.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 17:55:01

personally i'd have taken them square as he did but in addition would have fired up the iron genny and gunned it while sailing to pull out of the troughs. it takes a considerable amount of power to overcome them.

Sorry my original post was from my phone. I meant, I'd fly the sail for direction continuous power, idle the motor while surfing, and gun it to pull out of the trough. It'd smooth the ride some, and if you have the fuel, it'd help.

I also don't know that I'd run genny alone. Even a reefed main will help keep power in the boat, without the heeling moment added by the genny, get the power lower, forward and aft... Actually a reefed main, and reefed genny would likely be better than a fuller genny. If you were sill overpowered at that point... head towards the lee of an island/point, and try to wait it out. If no hope of that, then outrunning the waves with motor alone might be tough.

Edited by - shnool on 08/11/2012 18:24:40

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 18:42:07

blanik....sounds like you tested that new rudder and came through great, and a bit wiser. Don't want to think what may have happened had you still been using your "repaired" rudder. Coastal sailors must deal with swell, tide etc., but the short period, moderate amplitude wavesets typical of some inland lakes can pose a real and relatively unique challenge that is in no way forgiving. The Admiral and I got caught off Valcour Is lsst summer like you, but rather than running, we drove into the waves to seek protection behind another island. What a ride, but it really showed the Admiral just how well these boats can handle such waves. Thanks for posting your story.

Edited by - on

blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 18:43:19

trust me, going to the mast to raise the main was out of the question, from the minute we left the bay it was clear that i was not playing with the main (if i had to run close hauled it would have been another story but running/broad reach... nah) and the rolling motion was so violent the boom would have been slamming all over :-/

@glivs, some people like to make fun of lake Champlain's weather but it could indeed be something, not quite a sea, not quite chop but a weird and violent "in between" sometimes!

PS i have indeed a new balanced rudder but i never had a repaired one, my old one was destroyed during Irene, i never found a single piece of it! lol

Edited by - blanik on 08/11/2012 19:02:49

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 19:37:32

If you're heading downwind, then you're usually best off lowering all sails and motoring downwind.

If you don't have sea room to leeward and must head to windward, and can't get to shelter, then you must sail. You can't use the outboard motor in those conditions, because the motor will likely cavitate, regardless of how long it's shaft. In that case, you'll need a reefed mainsail and a small jib, although I have sailed my C25 to windward in big winds and small, inland lake waves on the mainsail alone. I'm not sure whether a mainsail alone would produce enough power to sail to windward, because it depends on how big the waves are that are crashing against the bow.

If you have an inboard engine, you can motor-sail to windward, with a reefed mainsail and no jib. On a sailboat, the sails can generate more power than the motor. I learned that when I was helping a friend bring his boat back from a race where the gooseneck on his boom broke. Ordinarily we motorsailed to windward, but with a broken boom, we couldn't raise the mainsail, and we found that, against 25 kt winds and the accompanying waves, we couldn't make much headway on the engine alone, and we eventually had to turn around and go back where we came from, because, if we continued heading to windward, we'd have run out of fuel at 2:00 am, without reaching our destination.

The heavy weather tactics you use depend on which direction you have to go, and the size and shape of the waves you encounter. I watched a 25' outboard powered sailboat similar to a C25 survive 55 kt winds and steep waves using these tactics, so I know they can do it, but I can also tell you that, in those conditions, the boat was very near the limit of it's survivability, and the best choice, as always, is to get to shelter before it gets that bad.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 19:41:14

Welcome to Lake Cheney. First I send others below. Second I decide how high I need to go so that I can manage the rollers on a tack to the nav lights on the marina entry. (By "manage", I try to turn down with them when I can to brake the "cycle".) I then beat to get to that tack that will work for me. I prefer to use my main with a relaxed vang so I can spill wind out of a twisted out sail head, boom to weather if possible. That depowers the top of the sail and reduces heel.
In that situation on my lake running the motor is out of the question because of the stern lifting and moving.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2012 : 06:52:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blanik
 

so the waves coming at us where about 4-5' high, non breaking for the big ones but the thing i didn't like was that they where so close to one another but by batch, so we're broad reaching, things are moving but it's ok, then suddenly the boat is almost thrown sideways by a wave, it leans to about 45 degrees, then, once the wave passed, it tilted 45 degrees on the other side, it would do that 4-5 times in a row, then it would calm down for 1-2 minutes and we would see those waves coming at us again, if they'd been more spaced it would have been ok but they where hammering us quickly, it felt at times that we where just thrown about (maybe it's my lack of experience in those conditions that gave me this impression?) at one point i did what we do when we want to take back control, i reduced sail so i took 2-3 turns on the furler and my speed dropped from 5.8kts to 4.4kts, i didn't feel it helped as the problem was with the waves, at some point i was turning the boat to get the waves directly on the stern while they pounded and resumed my course towards the marina between the salvos...

i'm still wondering what could have i done differently (or what would you do?) in those conditions
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have had similar experiences to you multiple times through the years. The most dramatic happened when we used to sail out of Ventura California with our Catalina 27 (inboard Atomic 4). Coming back south from Santa Barbara (about 25 miles to the north), a Santa Anna wind unexpectedly came up. Within 45 minutes the wind increased to strong Gale force winds and seas (50-60 mph winds, and 6ft+ breaking waves). I dropped the main and was only using the 110, and we were still surfing down the waves at 9-10 knots. I was used to racing in following seas, and what Steve Milby advised is clearly the right things to do, (except maybe for the motor advice...)

The problem came when we had to sail into the entrance of Ventura Marina. Almost every year someone was killed when coming in the entrance in conditions like we were in. The waves were rolling into the entrance and were MUCH higher and breaking since it was much shallower water. We were OK till one wave was much higher than normal and surfed us into the trough and buried the bow in the back of the wave ahead. There was no option to take them at any angle since the channel was far too narrow. The result was the boat stopped, the stern was picked up and slewed sideways, and she broached while in the entrance channel (turned sideways and tripped over the keel, and rolled the masthead into the water, taking off everything at the masthead). We were hanging on our life harnesses standing on the lee cockpit combing. She popped right up and the cockpit drained, the jib popped the bow downwind and we zoomed on in to the flat water further in where I could start the engine and drop the jib. Our slip was aimed into the wind that was blowing, and it took almost 1/2 throttle on the atomic 4 to hold her in the slip while people helped to tie her up.

No way would the boat have been controllable with the motor on, or with anything more than the jib. And no way to carry any sail aft of the mast. We needed the sail forward to keep her aimed downwind. The only alternative would have been to drop the jib and trail drogues and go all the way to Marina Del Rey in Los Angeles (it would have been a very long night of sailing!).

I purposely did not start the inboard because I had been caught in big waves before, and the flap valve on the exhaust tore off and waves pounded the transom hard enought to hydraulically fill the exhaust up over the antisiphon loop in the exhaust, and fill the engine with seawater, effectively locking up the engine. So I did not want to risk having exhaust pressure have the new flap valve open when a wave hit and drown my engine again! (several other sailors in Ventura reported similar engine drownings by the way).

So, my Cat 25 has an outboard, and no way would it survive a drowning like that from waves hitting the transom if the motor was down in the running position. And thru the years I have towed in other boats (yes, towed them in while I was under sail) that tried to use their outboards in rough conditions and had them drown.

I think the only thing I would have tried differently than you did was to maybe roll up your jib even more to slow down more. Just go fast enough to not have big waves hit your rundder really hard, but not so fast as to be driven into the back of the next wave in the trough. If you do not have a roller reefing jib, then over trim the jib to make it into a weather vane to keep her bow down wind. There is a reason a lot of north sea boats are designed as double enders, and those conditions can happen anywhere you have open water and a long fetch with a big wind.

Chuck

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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Response Posted - 08/12/2012 : 08:53:25

Anyone who has ever had a large mobo go by them in the same direction has experienced QUARTERING waves. They s*uck. You did the right thing using just the jib. Avoid quartering waves, take them as square to the stern as you can. When a mobo goes by, avoid turning INTO the waves, just parallel them. You only roll in one direction (bean-to-beam) rather than "corkscrewing." Motoring in big waves usually makes things worse, upwind or downwind, especially with only an outboard.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/12/2012 : 09:35:50

Wow! When you look at the quality of these responses and the years of experience of the respondents, it is awesome to have this group as a resource. Big following seas are a major problem and it takes a little while to realize that conditions are getting bad, so you cannot always adequately prepare ahead of time while you're still in a safe situation. I'd add a few observations:
1. Spend the time and the money to prepae your boat to lead all controls to the cockpit. The halyards, use a furler, jiffy reefing, a main downhaul, Cunningham, etc should all be in the cockpit.
2. That said, something will always foul at the worst possible time so be prepared to go forward safely.
3. When in doubt, don't! We all have obligations and we can't be late for work the next day, but if you believe you're risking life and limb to stay on schedule, wait it out, make the call, apologize and make it up. If you never made it back from your boat trip your boss, client, other would quickly find a replacement - have no doubt.
4. If you're in a bad situation and it continues for a while, figure that you will get tired battling the elements. If you have others aboard, accept their help. Take breaks if you can. Find shelter ever for a while.
5. Heave to - I've found being hove to in big weather is a good thing. You need sea room but since you're skidding downwind, your skid lessens the severity of the waves.
6. If your course is not dead downwind, you cannot keep you stern square to the winds. You will have to accept being hit on the quarter. Use your GPS and your charts and keep an eye on your course and position. If you're forced on the wrong heading you can get further from your destination and get dangerously close to land, shoals and rocks. During the breaks between the groups of bigger waves, compensate your course constantly. Look out for shallower areas (10-15 ft depths surrounded by 30-40 ft). This is where you'll find worse wave conditions.
7. Practice in bad conditions - don't seek out horrendous conditions but if you know you're in for challenging conditions, go for it. Find out the "what ifs" about your boat, challenge yourself to figure out what you and the boat can handle.
8. Try to determine how you'd survive if you lost something important in big conditions:
The engine died
A sail ripped
The gooseneck failed
Water in the cabin
Broken tiller
Broken pintle/gudgeon
Snapped halyard
Broken stays

Catastrophes are not usually singular events - it usually takes a combination of two of more problems to create disasters (following seas AND drowned engine). Plan for the "what ifs"

Emergencies come at us when we least expect them. Sometimes it's hard to know whether you're in one until you're well into one. Prepare and take the advice of those who've been there. This is a great forum and am glad to be part of it.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/12/2012 : 10:21:27

I just re-read your original post and saw something that I missed previously. You said you were broad reaching toward your marina, and then a different wave pattern approached and it was hard for you to hold that course, so you turned downwind until the waves abated, at which time you were able to return to your broad reaching course. I have noticed that conditions often oscillate with a degree of predictability during a storm. While you were sitting in your car at the mall, waiting for the rain to abate, you might have noticed that it frequently comes in regular cycles characterized by strong gusts and hard rain lasting 4-5 minutes, followed by periods of lighter winds and gentler rain lasting 4-5 minutes. On a boat, the waves will frequently be much larger during the gusts, and smaller in the lulls. The size and shape of the waves during the gusts might dictate that you steer the boat downwind, but, during the lulls you might have the option of reaching safely either to starboard or to port. If that happens, don't squander those opportunities by continuing to sail the same course downwind. During the lulls, reach diagonally across the waves to the nearest windward shore, where you'll find shelter from the wind and waves. When the gusts return, bear off to your safe course downwind.

Ultimately, the right tactics to use are the ones that get your boat, crew and you safely home. To a large extent, you aren't a free agent. The conditions often dictate the heading you must take and the way you must operate your boat. You do what you must do in the circumstances, but I tend to favor tactics that follow the path of least resistance. Given a choice between pounding into steep waves and running downwind, I favor the latter, because it is much easier on the boat and the crew. Given a choice between driving the boat hard in a determined effort to get to my intended destination and taking a chance on breaking something, and running down the coast past my destination and having a long motorsail back on the return trip, I prefer the latter. Instead of getting home Sunday with broken rigging or injured crew, I would opt to not get home until Monday or Tuesday without injury or damage.

While some prefer not to use the engine in heavy weather for legitimate reasons that arise out of their own experiences, I have not had those same experiences, and view it differently. I see the engine as a viable option to sailing. It is another tool in your kit that you can use as needed. When power boats, both inboard and outboard, are caught in heavy weather, they have no alternative but to use their engines. With sailboats, it is a viable choice that I have used and seen used successfully many times by both inboards and outboards in storm and in survival conditions. Don't hesitate to use any tool in your kit that you believe will help you get home safely.

There really is no good way to practice sailing in heavy weather other than to just do it. You can and should, however, learn all the many techniques available by reading the authorities on the subject. You can also gain confidence by sailing with experienced sailors as crew in either long races or on deliveries. By actually sailing in heavy weather, you will become less fearful of it, and you will gain your own experience and your own ideas of what works and what doesn't.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/12/2012 : 12:29:51

A while back I found an interesting (to me) illustration of the motion of water as waves travel through it. I concluded that it explained some of the challenge of sailing or motoring (slowly) in large following or quartering seas. Take a look at the third illustration in [url="http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html"]this article[/url]--paying attention to the yellow dot.

You can see that the water itself oscillates from moving forward with the waves, to moving back against them. It also moves at different rates at different depths. The forward motion is, in my view, what causes much of the problem down-wind: When the water moves forward faster than the boat is moving, the direction you turn the rudder is the opposite of the direction the boat turns. (You're effectively backing up through the water for that moment.) I have distinctly felt this effect, and believe this is a root cause of boats yawing suddenly to become abeam of what was a following sea, and then rolling side-to-side violently. When the boat starts to yaw, the helmsman corrects by turning back, but the water momentarily makes the boat turn opposite to what he expects--causing him to turn harder and exacerbating the problem. Then, when abeam to the waves, the oscillation of the water, pushing on the keel, causes the exaggerated rolling motion.

The lesson to me is:

1. As Steve says, stay directly down-wind, avoiding quartering waves, and...

2. Avoid sudden reactions with the tiller, realizing they may produce the opposite effect you're expecting. Keep it as close to center as possible, with very small corrections when you're close to the trough between the waves, so the water is moving against you--not with you.

Another variation to your "tacking" strategy--from down-wind to a quartering course to the destination, is to stay dead-downwind slightly past your destination, and then, when you get a little break between the larger waves, swing around and take an up-wind course to the destination. Once you're going to windward, even at an angle, the ride will be choppier and wetter, but the boat will feel much more predictable and stable.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/12/2012 12:42:24

dlucier
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Response Posted - 08/12/2012 : 17:29:40

Dave's post is quite apt. When I'm in quartering seas, I play the tiller to keep the boat on course and to lessen the chance the stern is going to get thrown around.

As the wave approaches, the tiller will be in a near centerline position with normal helm pressure from sailing. As the waves comes up on the stern, the rudder starts to stall and the helm becomes light and a fraction of a second later as the stern starts to lift, the wave exerts pressure on the rudder wanting to position the rudder with the wave like a wind vane. As the stern comes off the wave, the rudder again stalls a bit then bites in down the back side of the wave.

Having laid that out, when the waves comes up on the stern and the rudder begins to stall, I go with a light hand on the tiller so when the wave starts putting pressure on the rudder trying to force it to align with the wave direction, I let the wave take it and then when I feel wave pressure let up, the forward momentum of the hull naturally brings back the tiller back to centerline all without my exerting really any effort, I'm just letting the tiller seek its own equilibrium which may move the tiller 45 degrees from centerline then back. The result is the boat stays on a fairly straightline course without getting squirrelly. After a few waves, it becomes rather intuitive, and I'll sometimes close my eyes momentarily and just steer the boat by feel. It is quite exhilirating.

Now if I didn't let the tiller do its own thing at the beginning of the cycle, the wave would grab the rudder and push the stern over putting the boat in a broaching position with waves abeam.

Edited by - dlucier on 08/12/2012 17:36:00

redviking
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Response Posted - 08/12/2012 : 18:39:18

Yet another example of why lines running aft, lazy jacks, two reef points, and the ability to raise and lower the main and put a reef in from the cockpit should be considered mandatory safety equipment as far as I am concerned. I know, I sound like a broken record.

In my opinion, a small vessel with an outboard is way more difficult to handle in such conditions than a larger vessel with an inboard. I would also suggest that having the ability to measure wind speed is absolutely a must have. The difference between 15 and 25 is substantive. If in doubt of your abilities or of the conditions, I would have stayed put. Schedules and sailing don't mix.

Sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/12/2012 : 20:22:54

Ya, Sten, but sometimes you are where you are. My lady frequently makes fun of my attention to forecasts, and is too often right.

But my stance is that to ignore them is to ask for a "hard time." When we are out there, and when conditions make sails a little problematic for some of us "novices", bare poles and a motor are sometimes the most comfortable refuge. Then the question is, how to get home.

I've been under power with an undersized-shaft outboard in some of the nastiest conditions ever seen in Long Island Sound (35+ building over 48 hours)--in my late wife's and my "delivery" cruise on our "new" C-25... The marine police in our town couldn't believe it when we entered the harbor. I was forever thankful that she would sail with me ever again! I would never recommend going out in the same conditions, but I will never hesitate to suggest ways to deal with them when you get caught out there. As the NY Lottery says, "Hey--you never know!"

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/12/2012 20:28:16

Voyager
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Response Posted - 08/12/2012 : 21:05:07

Sten
On your last comment, it's tough to tell when you first get into things that conditions are worse than you're comfortable with but it doesn't take long before you find yourself in tough conditions. By that time, your mental calculation is either "turn back and wait it out versus push on and take your chances" however your judgment is clouded by testosterone poisoning.
Turning around and heading back to safe refuge is your best bet, since your chances of actually finding and taking advantage of refuge somewhere along the way may be tenuous at best.
Last night, we had 15-20's with 25 kt gusts and an 18 mile fetch in Long Island Sound. Seas were crazy. I was comfortably anchored behind an island and nearby was a 40 footer with four aboard from Delaware. Right around 7:00pm, an hour before sunset, they promptly raised anchor and headed out toward the SW, on a beam reach to the winds and seas. I saw them struggling to get on course with lots of luffing, pitching and heeling. They finally got underway but they were heeling and rolling badly.
I could not imagine what they were thinking except that they wanted to get over to Black Rock Harbor for some reason, about two hours away, or they were trying to time the slack tide at Hells Gate, the westernmost end of LI Sound, heading into East River.
While conditions weren't THAT bad especially for a forty footer, I was still very concerned - it was getting dark and LI Sound is quite rocky, especially toward the west.
I could only think that they underestimated conditions or pressed on, sacrificing the safety and comfort of our refuge to make better time back home.
According to the NWS, conditions were actually worse the further west you went and they were fighting a 1.4kt current.
I thought about announcing a Security call on Ch16 to alert all vessels in the area. But I realized that it really was not my call to make.
I was glad to get back into the harbor before the current started. Would've turned 4 footers into 6 footers in a hurry.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 08/12/2012 : 21:22:03

Which is why I do recommend sailing in adverse conditions once base skills are established. If you are only a fair weather sailor and a surprise storm pops up, you will not be as prepared as you would be if you had purposely headed out on a less than perfect day. Maybe not 25 knots the first time... And yes, I too have been out in 35-40 on my C25 and 55-60 on my C&C39. I'd say that both were butt clenchers, but we were way to far from a safe port so we had to ride it out.

Once on my C25 with a waterspout visible and the radio on fire with distress calls, I engaged the autopilot and steered into the wind with the engine running and went below and threw everything movable into the aft berth. Another time before I had the AP, I had to run with it. No choice. Broaching is not an option.

Once on my C&C 39, I couldn't see the bow and had to turn sideways to breathe. My clear one piece hatch is awesome as my wife could see me the whole time. She asked me if I was OK. I yelled, "I've never felt so alive in my entire life."

Having confidence in my vessel and in my gear made all the difference.

sten

Edit: I also would strongly suggest that if conditions are bad, do not head into port no matter how tempting. Running room is your friend.

Edited by - redviking on 08/12/2012 21:40:34

cshaw
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Response Posted - 08/13/2012 : 10:48:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Which is why I do recommend sailing in adverse conditions once base skills are established. If you are only a fair weather sailor and a surprise storm pops up, you will not be as prepared as you would be if you had purposely headed out on a less than perfect day. Maybe not 25 knots the first time...

Having confidence in my vessel and in my gear made all the difference.
sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I know my experiences sailing thru a hurricane offshore along the south Baja coast line changed forever how I view the "heavy weather" sailing most sailors experience. I agree with you and Steve both on learning to sail in heavy weather by actually sailing in heavy weather, but taking the learning curve "gradually" if at all possible (and sometimes thats just not possible when things change quickly and un-expectedly).

I think the same advice applies to learning to sail at night and especially re-entering your marina at night. I always suggest coming in at dusk a few times till you get used to how things look in the evening, and have a chart in hand to find the relevant nav aids you will be looking for after its dark. Its amazing how shore lights can camoflage channel lights sometimes, and watching them disappear into the shore lights really helps to know where they really are!

I also suggest to sailors to try sailing in without using your engine (you can have it running and ready, but in neutral), to see how it goes and what to expect and where the hard spots are to sail and where you can tie up coming in under sail. That does not mean to always try it, but you might find you do not always need a tow to get into someplace you can safely tie up.

And finally, to practice man-overboard drill with a fender or a float (and then have the crew do it without the skipper's assistance). This could be one of the more important things to practice when you do not need to do it for real.

These things and also learning to handle heavy weather build your confidence in your boat and your seamanship, and may turn a potentially bad situation into one that you can look back on and smile!

Chuck

Edited by - cshaw on 08/13/2012 10:50:52

buzzardsolo
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Response Posted - 08/13/2012 : 12:56:07

There's obviously a lot of good advice in this thread, so my advice would be to go with the consensus of opinions and see what works best for you. I don't believe that any single steering tactic will always work in the wide variety of conditions we can all encounter.

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet - I put in the hatch boards and close the main hatch in steep following seas. I don't "lock" it closed, but I put in a small carabiner to keep it secure. Ditto for the cockpit lockers. If you take green water over the side, you certainly don't want it going down below.

Buzzard's Bay is infamous for steep, choppy waves with short periods. I have a extra long shaft outboard, and even in the lowest position, motoring is simply not an option. The waves usually out pace the boat, so surfing down one wave and burying the bow hasn't been a problem for me. I always use the 135 genny, furled in enough to provide the right amount of speed. Using the main, even reefed, places the center of effort further aft, and will tend to broach the boat in very strong gusts. You do NOT want that to happen, and find yourself rounded up abeam to big waves and already heeled way over from the broach.

My steering tactic, contrary to some of the advice above, is to steer the boat a few degrees (5-10) to windward of dead downwind. As an especially big wave passes under the boat, I then steer directly downwind and cheat back up a few degrees to windward as the wave passes underneath. Experience has shown that dialing in the right boat speed and trimming the genny has a lot to do with the feel and stability of the boat. If a quartering wave does roll you over to 45 degrees or so (as you described in your original post), I would think that the pressure on the sail (as the boat is righting itself) would prevent the roll in the opposite direction and the oscillation that you described.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
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Response Posted - 08/13/2012 : 13:46:35

good advice on the sails buzzard: Bare poles leave the boat pitching.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 08/13/2012 : 14:14:43

Thanks for posting this question!

I think you may have had an easier time running downwind if you had rolled up the genoa further to make it into a small, inefficient sail. If you had reduced your boat speed even more, then perhaps the waves rolling under the stern might have been easier to handle.

Things were not SO bad, after all! I suppose it was not raining, and I guess it was daylight. I bet there was no lightning crashing around you!

Your boat had no broken equipment and the outboard was in good shape and ready to bring you into the marina at the end of the 2 mile trip.

Next time you'll be an expert at steering in this type of situation! Congratulations on successfully completing your intense sailing adventure!

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