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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

PERF for inboard C-25

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Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/16/2003 : 09:30:16

Does anyone know what the PERF rating should be for a C-25 with an INBOARD engine?

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 10:14:17

Renzo - what is the rig config?
2002 PHRF Handbook lists:-

C25 FK IB: 2 boats listed, 1 @ 228 (Utah) and 1 @ 240 (New England)
C25 FKTM IB: 1 boat on Lake Norman @ 198
C25 SK IB: No boats racing. Old ratings listed of 222 to 234

Derek Crawford
PHRF Committee, Canyon Lake

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 14:11:29

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Renzo - what is the rig config?
2002 PHRF Handbook lists:-

C25 FK IB: 2 boats listed, 1 @ 228 (Utah) and 1 @ 240 (New England)
C25 FKTM IB: 1 boat on Lake Norman @ 198
C25 SK IB: No boats racing. Old ratings listed of 222 to 234
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

We don't have any inboards up here, but I would be inclined to think the Utah 228 is an misrated boat. The 240 sounds more like a correct rating. I know the 30 footer I race on has both an inboard and outboard model and the inboard gets an additional 3 secs.... 228 is what an outboard C-25 std rig gets in many locations.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 17:18:18

Interesting thought, Dwayne.
I think that 240 is a bit high (just my personal opinion). On the lake we give a C27 TR IB a 205, and the C27 TM OB a 198. Using the same differential I'd rate a C25 SM IB at 235 and the TR IB at 228.
Whether they have a SK or a FK should not matter.
Derek

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Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 08:52:02

Thanks for the input guys. The boat in question is a std. rig, FK, IB that is rated at 242. I began to question the rating because the C-25 Design Class rules Sect "F" Item #2 in the C-25 Constitution & By Laws states that an IB will be rated at PERF +1 with a fixed prop and PERF +.05 with a folding prop. Given the nominal PERF rating of 228 for a std. rig, FK, C-25 the 242 rating seems excessive. What do you think?

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Bill Holcomb
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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 10:17:34

Hey Renzo,

You have to remember that the PHRF ratings are different from region to region. That's because each region set it's own rules and limits. In the Pacific NW, Snickerdoodle used to have a 210 rating when she was new in 1985. That changed to a 228 about 5 years later - not because the boat changed, but because there was an overall adjustment to all of the rating numbers in the Pacific NW. This happened again in the '90s. My rating now is 249.

So, the PHRF rating numbers really cannot be used from region to region with any accuracy.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 10:36:05

Good point Bill. On Canyon Lake we compare our numbers to 3 areas of the country that have similar sailing conditions to us (Long Island Sound, Southern Calif. etc). We also disregard the lowest and highest numbers listed (which usually excludes the Pacific NW <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>whose numbers are notoriously high). This makes our numbers pretty much middle range - which fits our conditions well. Average wind speed on the lake is 7 - 9 mph with minimal chop (except in summer when the stinkpotters are churning the surface).
Renzo - I do hope that all this helps you...
Derek

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Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 15:23:17

Yes Derek, this has been helpful and very informative. What I am trying do is establish an equitable rating for a new boat in our fleet. Most of the C-25s in our area are std rig , FK, with an outboard and are rated locally at 228,a fairly common rating for a fairly common boat. The C-25 with an inboard is a rather rare bird and consequently the PERF ratings for this boat are based on a very small sample with wide variations to choose from ( ie: Derek's original response from the 2002 PERF handbook, ratings vary from 228 to 240 based on only two boats from totally different areas and different sailing conditions ). Our local race committee seems to have chosen the highest PERF rating and then added a few seconds for good measure. In view of the small base of comparative performance data for this type of boat I obviously would favor handicapping this boat in conformance with the C-25 Design Class Rules that imply that the only difference between the C-25 IB and the C-25 OB is the prop drag of the IB but I don't know if the C-25 Design Class Rules take precedent over the current local interpretation of the PERF ratings. I guess I'll just have to bring it up at the next skippers meeting and see what comes of it.

Thanks to everyone for you replies.
Lorenzo Caricchio

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 15:51:36

Lorenzo - as an addendum. In our Cruiser Fleet (where we modify PHRF numbers according to how the boat is equipped) we allow 3 secs for a 2-blade IB fixed prop and 6 for a 3-blade fixed. A folding IB prop gets zilch!
Derek

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