Association Forum - To buy the trailer or not???

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

To buy the trailer or not???

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 3

szymek
Navigator

Member Avatar

Canada
209 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/22/2012 : 10:38:05

I know there are multiple threads about trailers for sale and “trailer ability” of Catalina 25, but I’d like to get your feedback on my situation (life story). I’ve had the boat for 4 years and I’ve been contemplating on upgrading to 30 footer but based on how much I’ve invested and quality of my C25 I’ve decided to keep her for min 3 more years. We spend all weekends on her and it’s good enough for two of us - upgrade will be needed once kids come along.

In terms of some background and why I want a trailer:
- I have access to Silverado 1500 at any time I need it. If this truck will be gone it will be replaced by another as my family has a farm. So there always has been a truck and will be a truck in our family.
- My family has a farm that is about 70 km away from the marina so I can store the boat there for free over winter.
- In 2013 I plan to move the boat to Penetang on Georgian Bay which is approx. 200km away from the marina for one season and see if I’m ok with traveling and spending weekends there.
- If we have our first child in the next year or two, I will consider leaving the boat at the farm on the hard for 1 season so I can focus on family 150% of my spare time. Then once the child is few years old I would consider upgrading to bigger boat as for 3 of us 25 will get small.
- When I launch the boat it will stay in the slip for the season
- I will use crane in the marina for launching
- I will save approx. $900 per year on winter storage If I buy the trailer

This is the second summer that I’ve been looking for a trailer locally – and nothing!!! Finally this year I’ve decided to go to states to pick one up. I pretty much closed on a deal buying a trailer from Oklahoma City and bringing it to Ontario. However after calculating time, cost of fuel, federal inspection, taxes, at least one night in a motel I’ve decided that it’s getting too pricey.

Since I was unable to find a trailer locally and cost to bring it from states are getting too much, I’ve decided on looking into custom made for me. I have two options that are at reasonable cost:
1. Excalibur-trailers ($4550 all in): galvanized steel, tandem 3500 axles, electric brakes on one axle, 6 bunks, bow stop
2. Custom metal fabricator that specializes in boat trailers ($3500 all in): squre tube steel primed and painted, tandem 3500 lbs axles, electric brakes on both axles, 6 bunks

So my questions/concerns:
- Is it worth it to invest in a trailer given I can save a bit on winter storage
- Does trailering Catalina 25 twice per year have any impact on structure of the boat hull/keel (bumps on the road, etc) - I’m aware this is not a light boat.

I know that this is personal opinion, but I’d like to hear your thoughts on what you would do and recommend. Maybe there are things I’m not thinking off and I should just continue paying marina storage fees and forget about the trailer.

Daniel.

Daniel
Shy Tuna
1985 C-25: SR/FK/TR #4838

Edited by - szymek on 08/22/2012 11:12:57

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2012 : 12:23:24

For your situation it would be a good investment. The money you will save, in addition to the increase in resale value when you go for the boat upgrade, will pay for the trailer. (mostly)

Also, consider Howard's opinion on 3500# axles. He's speaking from direct and costly experience.

Edited by - Joe Diver on 08/22/2012 12:24:22

rrick
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2012 : 12:24:20

Perks of trailering a fin keel is a low and centered 850 kg mass supporting the rest of the hull. So, the fiberglass hull is spared at least the weight of the keel. Keeping things heavy down low is important, this is a very tall load. Also, you want a large inertial mass to absorb the road. Both of those square tube steel trailer sound very light. In the perfect world that 1500 truck would be maxed out towing this ideal empty trailer. So my 2cents, do it right with proven trailer designs and a larger tow vehicle or keep enjoying your current setup.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2012 : 12:35:39

I trailer two round trips a year - Lake Erie from Southern Ohio and Pensacola, Fl and leave it in the water for both seasons. The flexibility is a plus for me; I am thinking about taking it to Michigan next year and Georgian Bay later. Pearl was always stored on the trailer by the PO, and neither that nor road travel has any impact. A trailer is an enhancement for many buyers, and can be easily sold if it isn't wanted. Some people recommend 5K axles, but Pearl is still sitting on her original 3500# axles. I almost made the jump to a C-30 last year but decided that I was better off being trailerable. Personally, I think 3 is OK on a C-25 for a few days, but 4 might be tight. You won't be able to answer that for yourself until you have full time kids in the mix.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2012 : 14:03:02

Thanks for the comments - that's what i really love about this forum.

Good point about the axles. I remembered that comment the other day. I will look into what's the cost difference to get bigger axles.

I will also post a pic of sample trailer that I got from the local guy that I found. Looks quite solid to me.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2012 : 15:09:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A trailer is an enhancement for many buyers, and can be easily sold if it isn't wanted. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Say what?

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24431

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2012 : 18:57:16

I've contacted David about his trailer. It's an older trailer but it's in mint condition as he has invested quite a bit. But given the distance to pick it up and hassle to bring it across the border it will cost be 3k+.

If I was closer I'd be all over that trailer.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2012 : 18:57:54

ok... I called the guy to ask bit more about the trailer.

I've asked him about the axles and given boats displacement 4550, he recommended to add another 1000lbs for misc equipment and trailer itself will be between 850lbs to 1000 lbs tandem 3500lbs axles are sufficient.

Below are couple of pics that i got from him as a sample. The only difference would be adding bow stop - which after all he agreed to do it at no extra charge.

The trailer seems to be quite solid and well made. What do you guys think.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2012 : 20:57:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by szymek
 
1. Excalibur-trailers ($4550 all in): galvanized steel, tandem 3500 axles, electric brakes on one axle, 6 bunks, bow stop

given boats displacement 4550

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

First: 3500# axles are just barely adequate for a C-25! The trailer I had built for Quiet Time uses 5200# axles and 16" Load Range "E" tires, not the 15" LR "D" tires that most C-25 trailers use. Your boat is HEAVY, and with a fin keel, it is very top-heavy on the trailer, which will put extra stress on the axles on curved roads. You want your axles, springs, and tires to have more than "just barely enough" capacity so that they can absorb the shock loading of potholes, debris on the road, a blowout, or hitting a curb, without breaking welds, bending the axle, or suffering a catastrophic failure.

Second: DO NOT put Electric brakes on a boat trailer! I can't believe a trailer manufacturer actually suggested this to you! You might get away with electric brakes launching in very pure fresh water lakes, but you drop that trailer in the ocean, in that salt water, and your brakes would be ruined. Boat trailers are intended to have hydraulic surge brakes; for a Catalina 25 trailer your usual system is a DICO #10 coupler, which can power drum or disc brakes, and is very reliable as long as you rinse it with fresh water after every salt water launch.

Third: Do not plan your trailer based on 4550# boat weight. I don't think any C-25 weighs in at less than 5200#, except maybe some first model year hulls that have been stripped for serious racing. Quiet Time on her trailer weighs 7700# with all tanks emptied. Fully loaded with water, fuel, food, cruising gear, a 135# Yamaha 8 power-tilt outboard, and two size 27 batteries, she probably weighs 8400# on her trailer. My sailing club used to have two 1988 C-25s with inboard diesel, and one of those boats, on an EZ-Loader trailer, weighed in at a whopping 9500#.

My point is that the factory's weight specification for the C-25 is totally unrealistic, with the unfortunate result that far too many C-25's are being towed around on typical 7500# rated trailers that are overloaded by even "lightweight" racing boats, let alone boats equipped for cruising. If I was having a C-25 trailer built from scratch, the frame rails would be upgraded from 5" or 6" channel iron to 4" x 7" tube steel, and at least 5200# axles, if not 6000#. To some this might seem to be overkill, but what is your boat worth if a lightweight trailer suffers a broken spring or bent axle and jack knifes after you hit a big pothole or a whole bumper that has fallen off a car on the freeway at 55?

Edited by - lcharlot on 08/22/2012 21:20:23

rrick
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2012 : 00:00:36

The original electric brakes (4) are functioning after 10 years of occasional fresh water dunks and and outdoor exposure. If I ever make it to the ocean, I'll try to find a crane. E-brakes rock BTW. Look up the pros, most importantly, the ability to tap the controller to eliminate a dangerous sway.

Another cost to consider is trailer tires. They wear from exposure to air. Every 3 to 5 years stay safe with this $600 expenditure.

Regarding your custom trailer. Compare these two. Mine came with the boat and was built in 2000 with powder coated C-channel steel girders and 3500# axles.

How can one find the displacement while sitting at the dock? Are the molds identical so area below the gunnel can be subtracted from gunnel to waterline? Alternatively, it would be nice estimate displacement from waterline to boot stripe.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2012 : 07:16:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by szymek
 The trailer seems to be quite solid and well made. What do you guys think.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think you should listen to a member's practical experience regarding axle ratings.

That trailer looks a little spartan as far as reinforcement and crossbars go. I'm not a trailer engineer by any means....it just looks a little....weak.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2012 : 11:10:48

Kind of hard to say much from a photo. Channel dimensions, wall thickness, and cross member number and location are all important in trailer strength. Mass looks stronger than a well engineered product. I'm not saying yes or no, but my pretty well cared for, 40 y/o trailer is still sturdy. I have surge brakes on one axle, and my reading suggests that our loads are in a crossover range before electric brakes on multiple axles are clearly beneficial. The CG is high and over the axles, so physics says that the vast majority of the braking load will be transferred to the tow vehicle. The trailer brakes help keep the load behind you as long as the wheels don't lock. The high CG of a fin might be a nudge in the electric direction, I don't know. A friend has comfortably towed his powerboat of about the same weight with a 1500 for years; look at your "as equipped" towing capacity.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2012 : 22:17:56

If your Custom manufacturer is the Marine Cradle Shop in Sutton ON (Used to be in Brampton) you can have complete confidence in their product.

The electric brakes are fine for your planned use.

Trailers do come up for cheap from time to time, but you really have to be on the ball to snap them up. Watch kijiji, and learn to weld.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2012 : 04:38:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A trailer is an enhancement for many buyers, and can be easily sold if it isn't wanted. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Say what?

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24431

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A trailer is always worth buying whether you think you need it or not. It may not be easy to sell alone, but it definitely makes your boat easier to sell. It also allows you to make repairs and do bottom work without the expensive help of a shop.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2012 : 07:36:59

I've posted the question here for a reason - to get feedback from owners of the same boat/trailer.

Point taken on the axles. I'm no longer looking at 3500lbs axles. I've asked the guy to let me know what is the cost on bigger axles 5200 axles. I should know later on today.

In terms of structure... based on my reading there are pros and cons of tube steel vs c-channel. But as Dave said it's hard to judge based on looking at photo. Sometimes close up might look stronger - so that's why the comparison above was not the best one. But definitely posts seem to be a lot stronger in Rick's trailer.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2012 : 08:49:03

3"x5" tube frame is more than enough for our boat. No reason to look into bigger. You will also have a hard enough time finding bolts (u-bolts particularly) for the 3"x5" frame as it is. I have one, and they aren't easy to source.
C-channel is suposedly easier to run wire through, but is weaker, and I don't have problems feeding my wires through the tube using a fishing line. Conduit is also nice IMO and protects the wire.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2012 : 11:35:28

ok.. so if I go with this guy I will go with 5200 lbs for sure... the price diff is reasonable.

In terms of more details....
the outter frame will be made out of 2x6 tube steel and cross bars will be 2x4 tube steel. Tire will be 6 bolt, 15" class "D" (Larry recommended load range "E" - so not sure if I should ask him to upgrade the tires as well.)

any other comments thoughts (especially on the frame size).

Daniel.

Edited by - on

rrick
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2012 : 23:55:00

I don't know who built my trailer, or even if it was built in 2000 (replaceable axles provide the only date), so I just wanted to show the extremes of custom trailers. The Trail-Rite uses half as much steel in my photo, and twice as much in yours. My custom job might either be overbuilt by someone who loves welding, someone who doesn't use engineering optimization methods, or was built extra stiff so it could use 15" tires and 3500# axles.
The other reason for sharing my photo is to help with what to order. I like the vertical keel posts to bounce the boat laterally straight before the keel lands on its own support pad. A keel support pad extended to the back of the trailer isn't needed. Mine is made of a c-channel pointed U with a wood spacer to rise the polypropylene skid well above any steel. I don't like the built in 10' extension and will be going strap-launch, even though it does work. The forward hull pad is a nice extra support. Last hull out I couldn't bow up as far as I would like, and hulled out with 1/4" space from the forward bow support. I know the center hull pad did something as I could rock the boat fore-aft and it would use this pad over the bow support. Forward of the bow support pad is missing another post holding a winch (reason I couldn't get the last 1/4" no matter how many dunks and pulls I did on the launch ramp).

Open frame trailers, like c-channels, do show everything from poorly penetrated welds to rust developing years later. The family jetski trailer is showing rust while rinsing the inside after 7 years of freshwater dips, with no easy fix. Powder coat is working well with just light surface rust in very few spots, except for where water collected under the keel support c-channel turned u-channel

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2012 : 06:20:02

Seems like trail rite or custom built with foot wide c-channel steel is only way to go.

ok ok.. jokes a side. One of the members here has a trail rite trailer for sale here where construction looks similar to the one that I showed as a sample.

6"x2" steel tube frame, 4"x2" steel tube cross bars and 5200 lbs axles seems like a lot of steel to me. Like i said earlier c channel vs tubes has pros/cons both ways.

The pic that I showed was just a sample that i got... one benefit of getting custom made is to listen to feedback on the forums, consult specialists and design something that is rated to pull weight of the boat and something that one is pleased and comfortable with.

I got what I wanted (and more) from the forum.... so my trailer shopping continues.

Edited by - on

palmtree
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2012 : 10:49:21

I just built a trailer for our swing keel last winter, spent a lot of time worrying about the axles and frame size. I over built the trailer using c6 for the side rails and a bunch of c4 for the crosses with a 6x4 hss with .187 wall for the tongue. I was sure I wanted the channels for most of the frame members because you can see both sides for corrosion control. I put 2 3500lb dexter axles with electric brakes under it. we purchased the boat in Brooklyn and towed it back with my 1 ton dodge, it towed easier than my gooseneck dump (6000 lb empty). There was some equip on the boat, but the water tanks were empty. We now pull the boat around with a 4 runner (rated 7000) and it pulls easy. Dexter makes electric brakes for the water environment, and if you plan to keep up on the corrosion control on the frame, I think that the frame could even be made from a thicker 4" channel (I have seen some at the local marina). I thought the boat was on the heavier side, but after towing it around it seems much lighter than expected. I will try and get it on a scale sometime and see. For a fin keel I would even think you might be able to use a power boat trailer and add some tubes with scaffold jacks with pads on them.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2012 : 12:24:57

One curmudgeon's $.02 (probably worth less than that): A fin keel C-25 is a rather unusual load for a boat trailer, especially one built by a shop that makes stuff for powerboats, snowmobiles, etc. Personally, I'd want to see a mechanical engineering degree in that custom shop, or else I'd go with a big name like Trail-Rite to have confidence in the engineering involving the material and component choices, and the structural design for carrying a tall keelboat. I'm not a fan of guesswork when it comes to something that big at speed on a highway.

Edited by - on

mowrangler
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
66 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2012 : 14:03:56

I'll chime in with a little of my own trailer experience. Be picky on the tires. My C250 water ballast is significantly lighter than a fin keel C25. When I bought it the C250 the previous owner put passenger tires rather than trailer tires and I had a borderline scary drive home when I hit a bump and the trailer started swaying and hopping all over I44. Having stiff sidewalls and load rated tires is truly important if you are going more than a few miles down the road.

And it is worth asking what tires the builder will put on. It is usually much cheaper to ask for an upgrade than to end up throwing away whatever they put on.

Edited by - mowrangler on 08/25/2012 14:06:30

palmtree
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2012 : 15:16:52

I took some pointers on size from trail n sail trailers website, they list what size structural members they use for what size boat. I used connections of my own design, I do not like to see welds going across members, I want them to go parallel to the member generally. I did end up going up a size on the steel, it was only a couple bucks more and 150 lbs heavier. as for tires, I run light truck tires on ford ranger al rims on the boat trailer, but also run crown vic steelies with load range E tires on the same axle setup on another trailer. One of the main things with boat (or any tire) is the dry rot and cracking when they get years to them with out getting worn out.

Edited by - on

Arlington
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
196 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2012 : 22:51:00

Daniel,

It could be helpful to go down and visit with some of the other larger local shops that build trailers and ask them to show why their trailers are the best. After you see what they are showing you, you will become a pretty good judge yourself. The trailer looks light, go down the the boat yard and study the trailers, you will start to pick up on good vs fair, vs what were they thinking? When YOU buy a trailer that was specially made for you, it is called Custom Made. A few years later, when you sell that same trailer, with signs of wear & tear, scratches, dents & repairs, it's called HOME MADE... go figure.

The pads look nice but I changed mine to bunks after a year of launching. The problem with pads on adjustable threads, is they wiggle (and bounce out) when the boat is not on the trailer, they float all over the place, when the trailer is in the water. As you pull the boat out and notice a pad is turned sideways or flipped over, you can't get the boat back in quick enough, it also means you are probably going into the drink, up to your chest to re-arrange the pads, at least once or twice.

While the trailer is in the yard, every crook that wanders by is eye balling your pads, thinking they sure would be handy for them to to adjust the height for ANY boat and easy to remove from YOUR trailer, to keep THIER boat on the dry.

A good custom builder should be including a mounting bracket for a NEW spare tire, as well as the spare tire, and not an old spare tire that looks new. Same for the TRAILER tires (not car tires). He should be including what you need, and not waiting until you ask. It would be best to learn how to read the date codes on the tires. There are a few guys that sell trailers, that will not have any reservations about sending you off with really old tires.

Doug

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2012 : 06:20:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 One curmudgeon's $.02 (probably worth less than that): A fin keel C-25 is a rather unusual load for a boat trailer, especially one built by a shop that makes stuff for powerboats, snowmobiles, etc. Personally, I'd want to see a mechanical engineering degree in that custom shop, or else I'd go with a big name like Trail-Rite to have confidence in the engineering involving the material and component choices, and the structural design for carrying a tall keelboat. I'm not a fan of guesswork when it comes to something that big at speed on a highway.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If the shop he is going to is the one I mentioned earlier, he should have no worries. I bet over 1/3 of teh cradles and trailers in the Toronto area were built by them.

An excellent shop with an excellent reputation.

Syzmek - can you tell us who teh custom shop you are thinking of is?

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

Members Avatar

Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2012 : 07:39:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector

Syzmek - can you tell us who teh custom shop you are thinking of is?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's a small shop by Chatham that has been in business for 30 years - building all kinds of boat trailers.

Thanks for all the comments. I'm thinking of putting this idea on hold - kind of sux as it puts a huge dent in my plans to move the boat to Georgian Bay next year or I'll have to pay around 1k for moving company (1350 for winter storage and 1k to move it to Georgian bay that's half of the trailer already). I guess I should have explored custom made trailer earlier in the year. I need to book my hall out in the next two weeks so I won't have time make a decision probably.

I've looked at several bigger builder's websites through US and Canada and to be honest after going through this thread in terms of design they all look pretty lightly made to me. I've talked to few guys about going with C channel vs tube and answers I get are all over the place. But overall the biggest difference is that C channel is much better for corrosion control but not as strong as tube so you have to go with more steel. Couple people in the marina that I talked to who have experience with trailering sailboats told me that 6"x2" frame is bit of an overkill but they said it definitely won't hurt.

Also before i started this thread I've emailed bunch of bigger companies and i've given them displacement of 5000lbs. every one came back with tandem 3500 axles. Go figure.

Anyways.. I don't want to waste my money on something that I might regret. I'll see what happens over next week. :-(

Edited by - szymek on 08/27/2012 07:41:36

Page: of 3

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.