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Hey Frank Good Luck in Houston

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/17/2003 : 06:35:03

Frank,

The time is coming very very soon when you'll be heading to Houston to survey an available wing keel c25. thoughts and prayers are with you in your travels and with the inspection of the boat.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 16:35:18

Hey Don,

That was very kind of you to send me the positive energy. I need it.

I have the surveyor scheduled for 11am, haul out at 1pm. Apparently the northwest wind empties out the water from Clear Lake into the bay near Houston. Isn't that a bummer. I may not be able to sea trial it. I tested out an 89 wing last December in 20 to 25 knot winds with 2 foot chop. YEEHAA what a ride. I screwed up the jibe, got thrown on my butt and wound up on a broad reach with the main sheet pulled in, and the jib flapping and the boat did not flip. I was impressed with the boat. When we had the boat trimmed out the main was not reefed, and we were using a 135. If the boat can take that abuse I don't need a sea trial tomorrow. We can check the sails in place.

10 grand for an 89 wing, no furler, marine head, 2 stroke. tall.
check it out on boats.com

Frank

Frank

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 18:48:29

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 06:51:56

That's it Don,

Heading out to the airport now to go to Houston to survey it. I may be a 25 owner by tonight.

Frank

Frank

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 09:58:48

Good Luck Frank,

Wingers sail very nicely.

Paul

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 12:13:10

Wow! What a nice looking boat.

Fully equipped and in what looks to be immaculate condition!
I'd find it pretty tough to pass her up.

Awaiting your good news.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 12:34:58

Don - thanks for locating and posting the pictures. I hope this boat checks out well, and Frank buys it. It looks beautiful! If I were buying it, I would want to change a couple of things though, the 2-stroke outboard would be the first to go. These have been banned on Lake Tahoe since last year, and the rumors from Cal-EPA indicate that the ban will soon be extended to several more freshwater lakes. Replacement would be a Honda 8 HT, or maybe a Yamaha 9.9 HT. The "factory curtain burner" stove would be replaced with an Origo non-pressureized type stove. I would probably remove the marine head and put in a porta-potti. There are no pump-outs at Folsom Lake, just a porta-potti dump station at the top of the launch ramp. I would install a CDI FF4 furler (in fact I have one already, sitting in storage and waiting to be installed on my own C-25 winger when the time comes).
Frank - you lucky so-and-so! I have a hunch that as I write this (it's Saturday morning), you are buying that boat!

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 06:45:50

Y'awl,

Frank's openness in sharing with us his search has for me brought back memories of my search for osmepneo. Certainly hope this is the one for our boat hunting buddy!

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 12:18:55

Well, it's Sunday. I wonder if we have another C25 owner(Frank) amongst our ranks?

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 17:36:51

Sorry Don, you don't have a new Owner in your ranks. The folks at Boats Unlimited, in my opinion, really did not give me a fair assesment of the boat. They led me to believe it was in great shape. To begin with, the motor did not run, and the broker offered me my money back on the spot and wanted to know if I wanted to cancel the lift. I don't think he wanted to fool with it. The surveyor who was there (who was great) was also aggravated as the boat was not ready for survey. The holding tank was full, smelled, and you couldn't really test out the plumbing because of it. Wiring to the mast was broken, electronics didn't work, VHF listed wasn't there, cushions threadbare and smelly. Lifted the rig, pressure washed and scraped off the barnacles (I was told it was painted a year ago) Only three blisters. Gash in bow repaired with who knows what. Split rudder.

You get the picture.

Yes, I know that I am responsible for "let the buyer beware" and that a broker is not responsible for how an owner represents his boat. But I think that a broker should not induce someone to spend money and time to come see a boat by telling him that a boat is in great shape when there are clearly things wrong which you can see even without a survey.

What made me really mad was that another C25 list member looked at the boat before I did, and warned me of it's shortcomings like an engine which wouldn't start. This was after I purchased a non refundable ticket, so I thought I might as well go. I e-mailed the broker and told him I expected to see a boat with the engine running. And it still wasn't addressed.

After discussing my displeasure with my expenses incurred and how I was aggravated enough to consider letting a judge decide if I should have my expenses reimbursed the Owner of the brokerage said he was tired of messing with this boat, thought I was threatening him, gave me my deposit back, and threw me out of his office.

Nice way to treat a customer.

I don't think I'll Deal with Boats Unlimited in Houston again.

The listing agent told me, prior to my going to Houston, that they are a "Christian company with christian principles"

Some C22 list members who I have never met before met me at the dock. They gave me some rides to other places and offered to help me in any way they could. I am convinced that Catalina sailors are the absolute best, and I am a confirmed Catalina addict. Just gotta find another wing keel now.

Thanks, I just had to get this off my chest.

There is a boat out there for me somewheres. Worst case scenario is that I'll just sail my C22 for a while longer. Not so bad. I feel better already. I have three and a half weeks off in February to go sailing in the Keys. Feeling much better.

Frank

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 20:56:07

What a shame. :>(

She looked nice in the pictures. It is absolutely amazing the neither the owners or the broker would care enough to have some very basic things done, like getting the the holding tank pumped out... or to fiddle with the outboard enough to get it running. What an attitude.

Most of the boat's I've had have been fixer-uppers... so I guess I might not have been as scared of it. The C25 I'm working on now was sitting for 7 years... so smelly cushions and broken wires are second nature for me. I'm pleasantly surprised whenever I find things that AREN'T broken, bent, cracked, split or rusted.

My thinking might have been... non-running Suzuki 2-stroke outboard minus $500... split rudder minus $500, blister repair minus $500. Cushion re-cover, minus $500 I might have offered $8,000 and looked to see if somebody blinked. (the price included a trailer...yes?)

By that time though, it sounds as if you had more than your fill of the broker's attitude.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 22:17:00

No trailer,
Good estimates on the costs of repair. I forgot to mention that the promised "recent bottom job" turned out to be with an incompatable paint which was flaking off and didn't protect from barnacles. The guy at the marina quoted an additonal 280 to 550 for the grinding which it would take, in addition to the bottom paint cost

I had enough

Frank

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2003 : 07:04:30

Frank,

I'm sorry that you experienced an ordeal like you discribed. Your comment"

The listing agent told me, prior to my going to Houston, that they are a "Christian company with christian principles"

with their very un-Christian ethic is one of my pet peaves, it really iratates me, because of the impression it leaves of Christianity. (I'm not upset that you said it, I upset that Christians behaved like the people you were dealing with.) It's not Christian it <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle> and significant damage to the church because it drives people away from the church.

I'm really sorry that they misrepresented the boat and treated you so crappily.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2003 : 07:14:59

Hi Don,

Thanks for realizing that I was not slamming Christians, and I really don't want to get into a religious discussion. I firmly believe people should keep their religion to themselves. (Did I just start a discussion?)

Your irritation was the same as mine, using religion as a sales tool. I live in Knoxville Tennessee, ans see/hear it all the time.

Maybe now after a day when all parties to this transaction have cooled down, and I get the survey, maybe I'll call them and give an offer reflecting the true value of the boat. Or maybe not.

Forgiveness, now there is a concept.

Thanks for your input Don

Frank

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2003 : 10:22:23

$10K no trailer.. that would put the boat up at in the $14K range with a nice new galvanized trailer.

If you can negotiate a grand or two off the current price, you might have the makings of a very nice boat at a reasonable cost. I think $12K is in the ballpark for a Catalina 25WK out on the coast... maybe even the low part of the ballpark.

Think of it this way... somebody's got to rescue her... for some reason or other, I hate to see a boat suffering neglect... which reminds me, I'd better go clean the bottom on the Venture today.

Gotta get her into the arms of a new owner so I can use the money to fix up the Cat.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2003 : 12:40:30

Frank - was the boat mis-represented to you originally as having a trailer? That would really ruin any possibility of honest negotiations for me. If I had been told the boat had a trailer, then spent the price of an airline ticket to go see it and found no trailer, I would probably walk out then and there. Considering the poor overall condition you found the boat in, and no trailer, $10000 is too much even for a wing keel 25. Take off $2500 to replace the dead outboard motor with a Honda or Yamaha 9.9 HT, $950 to replace the ruined upholstery (Catalina factory price for 12 new cushions), $350 for a replacement rudder, and a thousand or perhaps more to have the damaged bow section properly and professionally repaired, and at least $5000 for a trailer, and the boat's fair value is probably no more than $6000.

What a disappointment for you! I have heard too many stories like yours, about people flying long distances to look at C-25's that turned out to be no good for one reason or another. I have made a self-imposed rule that I won't look at boats that are more than a 6 hour drive away, which limits me to San Francisco Bay Area, Los Angeles, and Lake Tahoe, but that includes a lot of prospective boats, so I am lucky to live where I do, I guess. There is an '88 WK right here in Sacramento that might be for sale, but I have not been able to get a phone number for the seller; the harbormaster at the marina where the boat is sitting is not allowed to give out phone numbers...This boat is also semi-abandoned, seaweed growing 2' long visible along the waterline, sail cover and docklines old and frayed, and the boat looks like it has not been cleaned or even left the dock in at least a year. I am told by the last prospective buyer who looked at it, that it has no trailer, but the engine (an inboard diesel), had only 100 hours on the clock and that the sails looked virtually brand new and still shiny and crinkly. I would prefer an outboard, for ease of maintenance and lower replacement cost, but the boat sounds pretty nice if it is still for sale. The lack of a trailer makes it hard to sell a boat around here, but I would actually prefer it that way, so I can have a new trailer built to my own specifications.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

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redwards
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2003 : 12:45:06

Frank, sorry to hear your trip didn't work out well. Mary and I traveled to many places looking for that C-25 before finally finding one practically in our back yard (about 45 minutes from the house.) Really sorry to hear the broker didn't take our e-mail in ernest concerning the engine/head issues/instruments and general maintanance items that were apparent to the naked eye (your survey brought more to light than what we saw), even recommended the broker and or owner pay some kid a few $$$$ to clean up the interior. We drove 10 hours one way to check out this boat (with the same expectations you had based on phone conversations and e-mails with this broker.) His description of neglect over the phone convinced us that a clean up job would be in order, something that we have done before and was looking forward to doing again. But when we got to the boat and witinessed the degree of neglect we told the broker what was on our mind along with a 3500 to 4500 fiqure to bring this boat back to a 10,500 value ----- thing was he agreed and thought our $7800 top offer based on the boat passing a survey was fair and this was even before knowing the problem of the rudder and bottom issues etc. that your survey surfaced as I'm sure ours would also.After your survey I'm thinking the 6500 to 7000 range would be more in line.
The owner rejected our offer,countering with 10K so, as you we drove off into the sunset knowing there would be other opportunities.We would have liked to "save" this boat from further neglect and felt that adding the expense of a trailer would have put us in the 12k range, add a few more $$$$ more over a few years along with our sailing experiences would make our 12k a worth while investment.
Frank, again sorry for your disappointment but you must agree that the Clear Lake area looks to be really interesting enough to return to for some exploring with either your current C-22 or with that C-25 that will come along one day.

Ray and Mary Edwards
C-25 #5079 Cruiz'n<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

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pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2003 : 13:37:43

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Owner of the brokerage said he was tired of messing with this boat <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

He has been through this before Frank. Otherwise, he would not have made that comment.

He wants that boat out of his life ASAP. Did he disclose the reason for the sale...estate...bankrupsy...late dock fees..etc.

I'll bet that boat has been abandoned.

I kept my mouth shut before, but not now. I have been scowering the C-25 ads for 18 months in anticipation of selling my Marinette.

That boat has been on the market a LOOOOOOONG time. at least a year+. It's been on Yachtworld forever.

If you make an offer start at $1,000.00. I'll bet you a buck you get it for that. BUT, then you're stuck with it.

They know darn well it'll never sell for near what they're asking.

Screw them. They knew you were going to great expense to look at that boat and should have been straight with you from the start.

Honestly though. Having owned one rough 25 and sold one nice 25. I really believe it's better to wait and find a nice one. They are out there. Or get a nice swinger and convert it.

I thinkg it's easier and cheaper to maintaine a nice boat than to restore a beat up one. Plus, you'll be sailing more and maintaining less.

I appologize in advance for being so presumptuous. I hate the way they treated you.

Oh yea..I forgot..a 1990 wing hit the swap meet today.

Just a thought,

Paul

Edited by - pwhallon on 01/20/2003 13:41:32

Edited by - pwhallon on 01/20/2003 14:31:21

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Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2003 : 22:07:04

Dear Frank,

Sorry to hear about your trip! We found a low-milage Catalina in our backyard when we moved back to Florida. She was neglected, but not abused. About $8000 or so later (in addition to the purchase price), we've got a great boat! Now we've got her on the market as we're considering a larger boat (our three kids are getting bigger!), and our asking price isn't even close to what she cost to restore...so chances are there are good boats out there that are "turn key," i.e., you can simply get on the boat and sail, not spend months getting her up to speed.

Without starting a great debate, have you considered other keel configurations? You may consider broadening your search to swingers, fins or wings (unless you've got draft issues with your mooring location). A swing keel works fine with proper maintenance. We've got one and wouldn't hesitate to buy another, since we have the draft advantage of a wing and the ability to point to weather (not to mention the 6 foot "curb feeler" which is damn handy in thin water).

Best of Luck!

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84 TR/SK #4707

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2003 : 22:28:15

Hey Mike,

I never heard of a swing keel called a "curb feeler". I like it. I have a swing on my 22, and have gone through the work to completely refinish it. It's only 650 lbs vs the 1500 for a 25's keel.

A trailer was never part of the deal. I just mentioned that because someone on the list asked about it. I know that a new trailer is about 4 to 5 grand. Since I plan on owner my 25 for the next 10 years, or I move to the coast, I want a really good, over the road trailer. Some of the used ones I have seen are only good for pulling the boat out of the water and for storage. I plan on pulling it a thousand miles from Knoxville to the Keys, at least once a year, and then to the Gulf once a year.

This boat needs some serious rescuing. At least pump out the holding tank and let her smell better. It smelled worse after our tow to the lift and back. After the tow, all of the liquid in the plastimo compass leaked out onto one of the cushions.

The clear lake area is really nice, with lots of nice sailboats. The guy in the slip next to where I was looking at this 25 bought a Catalina 30 for 14,000, and it looked in decent shape. Wow.

I expect to do some work on a used boat. If I didn't I would buy new, but I don't like the 250's. I really like the 89 wings.

Frank

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jsummerfield
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2003 : 14:54:23

Wow!!

This eager and well-planned discovery adventure sounds as if it turned very sour indeed. I am sorry for the misrepresentation of the owner, the brokerage and the impression that it leaves of the area.

I hate to hear that someone buys an airline ticket, likely took a taxi or rented a car. In any event spent a fair amount of change to look at a prospective boat that turned out to be such a disappointment.

From the photograph, the Catalina 25 appears to be moored at the non-floating docks of the Seabrook Shipyard area. I am planning to talk to that marina looking for a cheap slip. I do not exactly own a Catalina 25. I used to own a fin keel Catalina 25 that is just across the channel bridge on the Kemah side in the Kemah Boardwalk Marina. It may be mine (actually registered to my older son) again very soon.

In the event that you have a need to look at another Catalina 25 or any other sailboat in the area I would be happy to perform a pre-check. It is a bit late to make such an offer. Also, I do not claim to be a marine surveyor. I would especially enjoy a pre-check of the bigger and newer boats. You know, they charge tickets at the boat shows here in Houston.

I did have a survey done on the other boat when I purchased it. There were a few items listed such as fire extinguisher adrift that were still true when we sold that boat. If we get it back I will likely do lots of little things like secure new extinguishers, add a bed in the main cabin like shown in the tips section, etc. The first thing necessary is a haul-out. It needed a bottom job when we sold it and I do not think that the current owner did the job. I think that many boat owners would offer to look over a boat before you spend the bucks for the air tickets.

The brokers expect a minimum of $2000 for selling boats in this area. I was about to list my boat when I sold mine directly, passing along the $2000 discount to the prospective buyer. As with any boat, it will always be for sale.

By the way, there is a great “On-the-Water Boat Show” at Clear Lake in about October. This is a perfect time to see hundreds of used boats along side the new boats. Not just sail but there are lots of sailboats available during that show.

Better luck next time.

John

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2003 : 22:36:24

Hi John,

Thanks for the offer.

On another topic, I announced that I bought an 89 wing in North Carolina.

This one in Clear Lake is at the Watergate marine center, pier 12. Right next to it is a Catalina 30 which the guy bought for 14 thousand. Lucky guy.

Frank

Edited by - on

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