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Tips on sailing on headsail only?

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TakeFive
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Initially Posted - 09/22/2012 : 16:13:06

I've never tried sailing our C250 on headsail only (we have a little 110), mostly over concerns of excessive lee helm. But seeing the C250's tendency to round up in winds over 20 kts (requiring me to luff the main to the point where I'm essentially sailing on the headsail anyway), I decided to give it a try next time conditions provided the opportunity. With winds of 18 mph sustained and gusts to 25 today, we had our opportunity.

First of all, sailing downwind or broad reach with wind over stern quarter is a piece of cake, as expected. It's nice to run at hull speed without worrying about an uncontrolled jibe.

Sailing close-hauled was overall better than I expected. Sure, we couldn't quite point as high, but the boat controlled very nicely once up to speed without excessive lee helm. I had to turn the wheel only about 10 degrees into the wind to maintain a good heading (not sure what rudder angle this translates to). The autopilot controlled this very well with no instability - which was a pleasant surprise, since gusty conditions and weather helm often wreak havoc on our autopilot.

The only tricky part was coming about. The boat severely oversteered every time. This is to be expected, because in coming about you lose enough speed to prevent rudder control, and once the wind catches the headsail on the new tack you're going to have a lot of lee helm and no apparent way to stop it until the boat gets up to speed and re-establishes the rudder's effectiveness. Over time we got used to it - once the sail filled on the new tack, I would just turn the rudder perfectly straight to minimize drag and let the boat speed up as fast as possible, and then once we regained speed I would turn back into the wind. I minimized the heeling during the oversteer by moving out from the helm seat over onto the windward side of the cockpit.

My question from all of you is, am I right to just live with the oversteer like I described here, or are there some "tricks" that I can use to minimize oversteer when tacking a boat on headsail alone?

It's nice to know that we can sail with just headsail, and that if we can avoid tacking we have really good, stable control. (That may come in very handy in a heavy blow someday, especially if heavy chop or swells cause ventilation of the outboard.) However, unless you guys come up with some good tricks to improve the oversteer, I think I am going to rerig my second reef so we can have something to balance out the headsail without rounding up in 25+ gusts.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

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redviking
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Response Posted - 09/22/2012 : 17:24:28

It is an interesting experiment, one that does teach a bit about sail trim and points of sail. But if I ever see a boat looking like that "I think they is scared!"

Main only, no prob... Jenny only... WTF? Unless a downwind and they don't want to rig a preventer... Dunno...

sten

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 09/22/2012 : 18:50:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 It is an interesting experiment, one that does teach a bit about sail trim and points of sail. But if I ever see a boat looking like that "I think they is scared!"

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Novi
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Response Posted - 09/22/2012 : 19:22:09

Last season I spent the last 4 weeks sailing with just the jenny because my main "self destructed" (ripped in half) and the replacement wasn't going to arrive until after my haul out time.

I found the boat performed fine under head sail alone - a bit of lee helm and a bit slow but still better than sitting at home wishing I was sailing.

Over tacking was an issue, I found it worked better to tack and steer the new course aggressively without sheeting quickly, then slowly sheet in the jenny to re-build speed. The only time I had real issues sailing with only the head sail (135%) was on a very heavy day (constant 20knt and big gusts) with high choppy waves (4ft). During a tack the boat would almost stop dead - if I kept the jenny back winded for a split second to push the bow across the waves we over tacked so much we ended up on a broad reach. We would lose so much VMG that we were getting further away from home - not closer. We started doing aggressive 270 degree jibes because we would lose less water to our upwind destination.

So I think the second reef option and keeping the main up is a better way to go when the going gets nasty. I only have one reef point myself but I have a 75% storm jib that is a dream in a big blow. That said we've had a very windy summer and I've only pulled out the storm jib three times.

Edited by - Novi on 09/22/2012 19:30:09

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/22/2012 : 20:34:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Main only, no prob... Jenny only... WTF?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sten!! WTF??? Now, I didn't have a C-250, and the C-25 foretriangle is a little bigger (mast further aft), but it's pretty normal for a mast-head cruiser. Main alone on my C-25 was an absolute PIG. 130 genny alone was fast, smooth, and easy in gusty conditions. I'd say it's too bad if you didn't try it with yours.

I can see a fractional rig favoring main alone, but most mast-head rigs will sail higher and faster on the headsail alone than main alone, with less heel because the CE is much lower. Lee helm is possible--mine was totally neutral, which was a little weird to me, but I got used to it. (I prefer some weather helm.)

When I see a sailor under headsail alone, my reaction is, "There's somebody who knows what they're doing." Main alone on a mast-head rig--probably a novice.

I agree, however--when tacking, fall of a little on the new tack, sheet in a little easily, gain some speed, and then tighten and head up. Speed overcomes all.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/22/2012 20:42:00

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/22/2012 : 21:02:45

I agree completely with Dave. The C25 on main alone is a turkey - almost impossible to tack. The only problem on headsail alone is overtacking - it's quite easy to do a 180! I found that by making a brief pause as the jib comes through the triangle it cuts down on the overtacking.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/23/2012 : 04:44:33

First, you shouldn't care what anyone thinks about how you sail your boat. As long as you are sailing it in a seamanlike manner with due regard for the conditions, it's your boat, and you can sail it as you wish.

When I see a boat sailing on jib alone, my assumption is that he wants to save himself the effort to raise the mainsail and to furl it and flake it when he takes it down. Instead, he can just unroll the jib, and then roll it up when he's done. But, sailboats are designed to sail their best with a balanced sailplan, and not on one sail alone, so, when you need good all-around performance, use some combination of a jib and mainsail.

It appears you have figured out the positives and negatives of the C250 well, and I can't add to your own observations, but this thread is in the general forum, and I can add my own observations regarding the C25.

In very strong winds (over about 18 kts), I have found that the C25 sails well on mainsail alone. With that much wind, the sail can drive the boat at good speed, and because the mainsail is self-tending, it's easy to tack. You don't have to haul in long jibsheets fast every time you tack. As I recall, I set the traveler to windward to narrow the tacking angle a little, so, for best performance I did have to adjust the traveler a little when tacking.

In lighter winds, I frequently see both masthead and fractional rigged boats, including C25s, sailing and tacking on main sail alone when sailing in the queue and waiting for the start of a race. The only problem I have seen with mainsail alone is that, in very light winds, there just isn't enough sail area to drive the boat through the water.

In more moderate winds, the jib alone works reasonably well on the C25, as long as the jib is about a 130% or larger. An overlapping jib puts some sail area aft of the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR - the keel). That replaces, to some extent, the sail area aft of the CLR that would otherwise be provided by the mainsail, and that sail area aft of the CLR helps the boat tack and point to windward. Without it, it is very difficult to get the boat back onto a beat after a tack.

This thread is a good example of the need to know your boat, because your C250 can apparently sail and tack decently on a 110% jib alone, but that has not been my experience with the C25. Learn what works for your boat in any given set of conditions, and use whatever works best for you and for your boat.

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 09/23/2012 : 04:59:15

The Capri 25 is a masthead as well, and I totally agree that sailing on main alone is, well, less than productive, but in stiff winds can be done. Sailing on jib alone, I've done, and find exactly what you observe... Here has been my experience, and take it with a grain of salt because I don't have YOUR boat.

Reduce headsail as you can, and reduce the main... sail both for as long as you can. If it really pipes up, it's really less stress to the rig if you are going to fly one sail alone, fly the main. I don't really think you'd have a failure, but when we are talking about this, we're talking about quite a blow (well over 20knots, probably 25+). Under 25, you'll find a 110, and a reefed main to be overpowering sure, at times, but the balance will be better and progress to windward MUCH improved as well as ability to point.

Again sail it as you see fit for sure, and I can see running headsail only for the reasons Steve mentions (ease of use, and when you are just relaxing, and having a wine and cheese cruise)... but when it pipes up it's about balancing the rig, and usually, just getting back and safe.

I'll add this too, if its 25+, and you aren't still having "fun," the goal changing to getting back to the marina, another alternative is "motor sailing." I've found for me at 20+ I am dropping to main alone (and perhaps a reef), and firing up the "iron jenny" and I get better progress than with either alone (and saving fuel on motor alone). Unless of course I am racing, where I'll do all up, and full sail, ride-em' cowboy (ha, not really, but sort of).

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 09/23/2012 : 09:53:36

We've sailed on main alone many times before, and would have done so yesterday if I hadn't wanted to try something different. My C250 actually sails quite well on main alone, and if we want to take a break and not have to man winches and sheets, we can stick the traveler in the middle and tack with no sail adjustments. And when motoring we often put the main up to give some assist and minimize the gas consumption.

But I wanted to get the experience sailing to windward with genny alone since it seems the best way to approach a dock or mooring if we ever have an engine failure. While approaching a dock or other obstacle, furling up the jib would be much easier than dropping/flaking the main.

In general, if I want to reduce sail area by using only one sail with the C250, my experience so far is that it would be best to sail to windward on main alone (with appropriate reefing), broad reach could be done with either, and running would be best with genny alone.

Edited by - TakeFive on 09/23/2012 09:57:10

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/23/2012 : 10:09:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 ...The only problem on headsail alone is overtacking - it's quite easy to do a 180!...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">In my experience, not if you fall off a little and trim gradually to the new tack, letting the sail ease you up to speed before you try to point and harden up. If you rush it, you can end up losing steerage--then comes the 180.

Another thing that comes to mind... This is a case where it's especially important not to over-steer. Pushing the tiller past about 45 degrees "stalls" the rudder, making it more of a brake than a rudder. If you hear a sudden boiling of the water astern as you turn, that's a sign.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/23/2012 10:33:28

DaveR
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Response Posted - 09/23/2012 : 11:19:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> save himself the effort to raise the mainsail <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That was my reason mostly. Many times on a lazy Afternoon sail. But also if you've got the wind off an aft quarter and don't want to get there too quickly.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 09/23/2012 : 16:12:01

I've sailed with the genny alone pretty often. I've usually been alone and often it was an evening sailor the 2nd trip away from the slip for a day. The main nice and tidy resting on the boom and the 135% pulled all the way out. Great lazy sailing. When I do this, I'm really not all that concerned about high performance sailing. The first few times I did it, lee helm was an issue but, with a little sail trim practice that eased up and has been pretty neutral since.

With a furler on the front, I don't see nay real advantage to sailing mainsail only. It's just to easy to pull the string and balance the sailplan. So, if the main goes up, out comes the genny. I'd rather shorten both sails and have them balanced than using the main alone.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 09/23/2012 : 17:44:22

Agree. Main alone (unless motorsailing in very light conditions) is a pig. Go with the genny.

In the photo below, I can pretty much guarantee there were only two sailboats on the water, me and the sailor taking the pictures who was also on genny alone, because if I'm going headsail alone, more prudent sailors stayed in port.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 09/23/2012 : 19:41:28

For those who do sail on jib/genny alone I'm curious if you can respond to TakeFive's query about tacking. I've had the same problem at times where you lose too much speed tacking and the big foresail keeps pulling the boat around to a broad reach before picking up speed. With both sails up this is easy to fix by letting out the jib (making it less effective) and building up speed on the main, but with the jib/genny alone it wouldn't work so well.

I've always assumed that those running on jib/genny alone didn't want to bother with removing their sail cover. I came to this conclusion because I primarily see boats with roller furling sailing on genny only, without the main.

I've tried both main only and genny only and personally prefer how the boat handles on main only.

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shnool
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Response Posted - 09/24/2012 : 03:34:31

Sailing headsail alone, tacking is generally like that where is pushes you WELL past your optimum sailing angle. It's a center of effort thing... since in this case it is all VERY forward, pushing you around in place, and the tack slowing you down, with the keel now not providing enough lift to move you forward. If you were moving at say 5 knots when you tacked, you'd be slightly more successful, but it'd still be very far over before you gained enough speed to get back to optimum angle. It's this reason in a blow they recommend you fly a balanced rig (reduce sail area forward and back simultaneously). Only time headsail alone balance is really OK, is Downwind. Hence storm jib running before a storm.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/24/2012 : 04:28:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 For those who do sail on jib/genny alone I'm curious if you can respond to TakeFive's query about tacking. I've had the same problem at times where you lose too much speed tacking and the big foresail keeps pulling the boat around to a broad reach before picking up speed. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's a good summary of the problem. If you fly a slightly overlapping jib, such as a 110%, it is difficult to generate enough boat speed to generate enough lift from the keel to overcome the imbalance, and to drive the boat to windward. If the sail snags even slightly on the rigging during the tack, the boat loses so much speed that the keel won't produce enough lift to hold the boat's head to the wind. There are too many factors working against you, and, every time you tack, it will be a hassle to try to keep the boat sailing to windward. If your purpose in sailing on jib alone is to avoid the hassle of raising and furling the mainsail, what you are really accomplishing is to eliminate one hassle and replace it with a different one, so you might as well just raise the mainsail and avoid the frustration of struggling to keep the boat's head to wind.

To summarize, if you don't want to raise the mainsail, then raise a 130% or more. It will usually work satisfactorily. A 110% creates too much of an imbalance, and is too much hassle.

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pfduffy
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Response Posted - 09/24/2012 : 07:51:36

When I sail with just my 5 year old daughter, I will often only unfurl my headsail (135%). My destination, however, is always to simply be under sail. I don't normally go anywhere. Gybe...tack...makes no difference to me so long as I am sailing!

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 09/24/2012 : 08:48:29

As mentioned, size of the genoa does matter when going headsail only. With my original genoa, which measured closer to 150, upwind and tacking performance was reasonably good. When I bought a new smaller 135 genoa, headsail only performance diminished and I found myself going with only one sail much less since, probably only once or twice this season.

I think Pat has got it. Most who put up just one sail, whether main or furling headsail, are not racers trying to hit a mark or a cruiser on a passage, but rather someone who may want to go out when conditions are iffy and they want to keep things simple, just release the furling line. Additionally, when it's blowing like stink, I plan my sailing itinerary so that I avoid having to go close hauled. Close reach out, then close reach back. It doesn't take but a few lessons where you sail off the wind when its blowing pretty good then decide to turn around and head back to port only to end up having the wind, and waves, on your nose the whole way back.

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 09/24/2012 : 09:12:14

I have sailed a few times with my 150 genoa alone and it is fine sailing that way but as was mentioned, it tends to overtack. Two comments regarding the overtacking:

What I have done to minimize the overtacking is that after setting up for the new tack and the boat looks like it is going to overtack, I then let out the genoa sheet just a bit and that seems to minimize the overtack, then I pull in the genooa sheets to remain on the new tack.

Since I am river sailing and deal with tide change besides wind/wavelets and sometimes rather short tacks, the concern with overtacking is exaggerated (more of a concern due to loss of gaining distance on the new tack) compared to if I were completely in open waters. When in open waters and/or on long tacks, then when tacking the few times needed, the overtacking is not a big deal but if doing a number of short tacks, the overtacking is of more concern and so I suspect everyone's comments regardng sailing with just a head sail has to factor the frequency of making tacks. I tend to go out with both sails and only a few times with the genoa alone and mostly only when I am lazy and do not want to uncover my main and hoist it. But if winds will not be favorable for long tacks, then both my sails are out which is how I normally sail whether short or long tacks will be necessary. (For example, if I am going up or down river and I can stay on a tack for a fairly long time, then it is no big deal with just the Genoa or with both sails. But heading up or down the river and at low tide needing to stay closer to the channel, then I tend to not gain as much on each tack when sailing with the Genoa alone.)

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NautiC25
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Response Posted - 09/24/2012 : 10:10:46

I don't have a furler, nor want one. But, I always sail on main alone when being lazy and have nowhere to be. Flaking the main is easy for me, but putting away the jib is a pain. I've never had problems sailing on main alone. Now if I had a furler, then I'd probably sail on the jib because it would then be easier to fly.

I'm not going to be like those above and tell you which sail to use. Just try both and do what YOU think is easier.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 09/25/2012 : 05:42:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 It is an interesting experiment, one that does teach a bit about sail trim and points of sail. But if I ever see a boat looking like that "I think they is scared!"

Main only, no prob... Jenny only... WTF? Unless a downwind and they don't want to rig a preventer... Dunno...

sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't quite understand what your beef is with sailing on genny alone, and why you think anyone would be scared. Perhaps you can elaborate.

I've seen many boats sail on genny alone in my area. In fact, several were doing it today because of the conditions we had. I've heard many here talk about doing it, which is why I sought out some advice here. It sounds like you don't have any advice to offer on this one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh goodness gravy! I guess I should have used more smiley icons!

It's more of a joke mate, but without repeating Dr. Milby's very well written and expertly put review of the topic, I will still insist that not running the main it like taking an engine on a 737 out. Yes, it will still fly, but it's going to be bitch to drive.

A main provides stability and proper airflow over the sails. And it just looks better!

Now as far as tips go, roll up the roller curling up to the point where the headsail clears the rigging. Loosen both sheets a bit so that it works, and you now have a self racking jib. Rig the main, hopefully from the cockpit into its second reef. Now you have a self tacking boat that is easy to handle in heavy weather.

Sten

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/25/2012 : 06:42:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...roll up the roller curling up to the point where the headsail clears the rigging. Loosen both sheets a bit so that it works, and you now have a self racking jib...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You need to explain better how to loosen both sheets so the jib racks itself--especially going to qeather... (Seriously, can you do that and tack up-wind??)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/25/2012 06:45:47

redviking
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Response Posted - 09/25/2012 : 07:23:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...roll up the roller curling up to the point where the headsail clears the rigging. Loosen both sheets a bit so that it works, and you now have a self racking jib...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 09/25/2012 : 07:31:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Now as far as tips go, roll up the roller curling up to the point where the headsail clears the rigging. Loosen both sheets a bit so that it works, and you now have a self racking jib.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, that's a nice theory, but unless the furling headsail is built flat or has some sort of foam/rope luff to flatten the sail upon furling, the sail might develop a nice lump or bubble when reducing headsail area. My larger genoa was only usable when either full out or storm jib size. Anything in between and sail shape was horrid.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/25/2012 : 07:50:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...roll up the roller curling up to the point where the headsail clears the rigging. Loosen both sheets a bit so that it works, and you now have a self racking jib...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You need to explain better how to loosen both sheets so the jib racks itself--especially going to qeather... (Seriously, can you do that and tack up-wind??)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes you can, close hauled even. Tacks are instantaneous. Loosen the sheets until the desired sail shape is achieved and cleat it off. Leave the same amount of sheet loose on the other side and cleat it off. It's just a poor man's Hoyt selftacker. Again, the headsail must be reefed to the proper point.

Sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Very interesting! That idea never occurred to me, after all these years. I'll have to try it sometime, probably not until next season. It sounds like a technique that might be very useful to a singlehander short-tacking, especially with a bigger boat, through a confined area. It also sounds like you have to figure out just how much sail to unroll, as well as just how much tension to put on each jibsheet. If you don't get it adjusted fairly closely, you probably won't have good enough sail shape to make it work well.

Just thinking out loud, would it be helpful to run the jibsheets inside the mast stays, instead of outside, so you can sheet the jib a little closer to the boat's centerline, and reduce some of the slack in the jibsheets?

Did you figure that out yourself, Sten, or did you learn it from some olde salt that you ran into in your travels?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 09/25/2012 : 08:14:37

It would seem that if both sheets are the same length, then the windward sheet would be loaded since clew is farther from the windward genoa block.

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