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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

used balanced rudder pics

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Merrick
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USA
192 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/06/2012 : 06:37:59

I am looking at a used rudder for sale, a balanced rudder from Catalina.
From what I've read on the forum, it should be foam core or non-wood core, I believe.
I am concerned about the splits in the seam which to me look wider than they should be, but I've never seen one of these before. Is this
normal looking for this type rudder? It is supposed to be about 10 years old. If it is foam core, is it an issue to have these seams?
I don't see any cracking or swelling. The seams appear to be filled with resin.

1981 #2555 "Aero"
sk/sr
Coosaw Island, SC

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 07:24:12

Mine never looked like that, and I suspect it still doesn't... (Bruce?) Either freezing (with moisture in the foam) or too much direct sunlight (heat) might have done that. (The heat problem is more often caused by exposure of bottom paint to direct sun, and there apparently isn't any bottom paint.) I'd pretend I never saw that one.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/06/2012 07:25:40

GaryB
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4304 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 19:45:20

Run Merrick! Run!

Mine is original to my '89 and does not look anything at all like that one. How much are they asking for it?

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Merrick
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192 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 20:28:50

$300. I talked to a guy at Catalina and he didn't seem overly concerned except he said he couldn't tell enough from the pictures. He suggested sealing it up with epoxy or fiberglass.

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szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2012 : 22:22:04

yeeks. Personally I'd walk away from it.

I went through broken rudder episode this summer - nut much fun.

check out my thread and new rudder on page 4: http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25166

I got my rudder from http://fincofab.com/ and paid 600 plus 120 shipping

Their mold is based on 89 Model from one of the forum members.

This rudder is honestly like adding power steering.

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OLarryR
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3467 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2012 : 09:56:36

My rudder sort of resembles yours except the seams are not quite so pronounced as shown in your photos. When those seams are inspected up close, at least on my rudder, it is clear that this was the way my rudder was manufactured as the seam is fully encapsulated by resin and not what appears to be a separation that is growing. The seam space shown on your rudder photos does appear more separated than mine. It is not clear from the photos if those seams are fully resin filled. If they are, well then I would not be quite as concerned except......any old rudder may have hidden defects/deficiencies. If it is truly only 10 years old and the seams fully resin filled, then maybe not an issue. But my rudder is the original and that means it is 22+ years old. The PO back in 2005 told me that a survey he had on the boat, the surveyor indicated the rudder had some water permeated areas. Given that I keep it in all year round and bought the boat back in 2005, I was considering replacing it when I had a waterproofing job done this past winter. But the shop gave it a once over and felt it was okay and not needing replacement yet. So, these rudders can last a long time...but sometimes hard to tell what is doing inside internally regardless if the seams are or are not an issue. $300 seems like a lot for a 10 yr possibly older rudder, though, it is a lot less than a new rudder. If I were faced with replacing my rudder, I would just throw in the towel and get a new one. But I acknowledge there is a cost difference and so it is one of those issues where one has to decide what is best for them.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2012 : 11:07:44

If it has to be shipped, that'll be a non-trivial addition. I truly believe the rudder is not worth $300 (about 50% of new, unblemished), although I can't say what it is worth from the pictures. ($50?) Whatever it costs you (total), I'd say you're risking the full amount in hopes of saving a few hundred... People here have had very mixed results from repairing deteriorated rudders.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/07/2012 11:10:49

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2012 : 11:16:39

Foss Rudders took my 89 balanced rudder and made an exact copy using better materials. Works and fits great. They also said they want to be the cheapest option, so give them a call.

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Prospector
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3159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2012 : 12:52:50

UM... I think it depends on manufacture. As someone above said, my rudder has that same appearance and is fine. It was made from a 2-part mould and this is simply teh seam between the halves of the mold. Seal it if you want, but my rudder has no flex, adn no issues with delamination and has had that appearance since I got the boat 5 years ago. I have kept a close eye on it since reading a number of threads on dead rudders ane I am not convinced that a longitudinal seam is a sign of a transverse break waiting to happen.

FWIW I have killed a tiller and a set of pintles/gudgeons so the rudder is at least stronger than either of those were. (weakest link as point of failure) I regularly sail in conditions others call marginal.

I do want a balanced rudder, but not for any fear of my unbalanced rudder failing.

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Merrick
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192 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2012 : 07:59:35

Thanks for all the input. After re-examining again, I think what has happened is the finish has come off over the seam and it looks bad but it doesn't seem to have actually separated. I think the resin is original. Anyway I offered $200 and he accepted. I'm willing take a chance on that much and hope it works. I still have my old rudder as backup. BTW Foss Rudders (mentioned above) has the best price I've seen if anyone is looking for a new one. $552 plus $125 packaging and shipping.

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szymek
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209 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2012 : 10:48:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Merrick
 I'm willing take a chance on that much and hope it works. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When you pick it up have a good look at it and ensure the seam is fine. By looking at the pics it seems to be swelling in few spots which might mean water got in there, which might impact the structure.

Also have a good look at the rudder where the pintles are installed.. especially the bottom one as that's where the most stress is applied.

Also another thing to consider. If this rudder is balanced it has a different shape - it will have a little step that tacks in under the skeg.I believe those rudders were built for late 80s Catalina's that have straight transom. My transom has a cut out so i had to install the pintles slightly higher so the rudder is lower otherwise it would not fit under the traveler.

Loosing $200 is one thing, dealing with broken rudder when you're sailing in 15-20kt winds is another thing. I was set on saving few hundred bucks on repairing my rudder... and it ended up snapping in half after the repair.

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Merrick
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192 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2012 : 13:13:25

thanks syzmek. If this rudder fails I'll post pictures and learn my lesson.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2012 : 14:44:41

Syzmek makes a good point about stress at the pintle... There were recent pictures posted here of a foam-cored balanced rudder that broke on a clean, horizontal line right at the lower pintle. My suspicion, having mounted pintles on a presumably identical rudder, was that the pintle compressed the shell due either to being forced onto the blade, or to swelling afterward. My pintle brackets were initially slightly too narrow to fit without forcing, so I had them spread by a machine shop to avoid that stress. Look for signs of compression (indentation or cracks) around the pintles--particularly the lower one.

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Voyager
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5378 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2012 : 15:57:47

To answer Dave's question, I've been diligent about getting the rudder off the boat right after hauling, preventing a freeze.

With the pictured rudder I'd be inclined to check the symmetry around the seam - are both halves the same, or is one side bowed out? Also, is the crack completely filled, or are there voids?
If any of the filler epoxy is cracking or chunking off, or if any of the skin is separated from the blade, I'd suggest you clean it, sand it, fair it down smooth, refill the voids, fair it again then paint it over to eliminate the unsightly crack.

If you were so inclined, you could also lay on a strip of fiber glass cloth to the front and/or aft edge before you epoxy it over.

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Merrick
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192 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2012 : 15:59:41

will do. I couldn't see any cracks around either pintle, but I see how that could weaken it by compression.

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Merrick
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192 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2012 : 16:10:34

Bruce that's pretty much my plan. It looks symmetric to me and most of the seam is sealed, but some areas you can see small cracks, the worst right on top. The edge of the finish (gel coat?)is a little ragged in places. Reseal, sand and probably paint.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2012 : 19:43:53

In closing, I'll just say this... On a small lake, much of this is of little consequence. Patch up a compromised rudder and sail for years...

On big water (one of the Great Lakes, an ocean, or a sound, when sailing in heavy air and big chop, with the boat heeling and pitching, the impact forces on the sides of the rudder are substantial. This is when any weakness is exposed, and can result in a rudder break at the lower pintle just when you need it least. If you want to simulate the result, some day in heavy air, just let go of the tiller, leave it loose, and see what happens. No cheating--no grabbing it to save yourself. All you get to do is change anything else you can think of but the helm, as if you had no helm and are trying to save yourself...

Actually, do not do that! The risks are very real! You will likely end up jibing and possibly even losing the rig before you figure out to do about it! It happens in an instant, and generally in already challenging conditions.

My point is that the rudder is an absolutely critical component for maintaining your safety in heavy conditions--not more important than the standing rigging and keel, but equal to them. Keep this in mind as you decide your cost/risk equation, especially in big water.

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szymek
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Canada
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Response Posted - 11/09/2012 : 21:30:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Merrick
 thanks syzmek. If this rudder fails I'll post pictures and learn my lesson.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not sure why you ask a question where you already have your mind set.

I'm no structural engineer, just speaking based on my experience with broken rudder - kind of sux when it happens.
I do take a lot of chances myself - but I'm very picky when it comes to ensuring that my vessel is sea worthy as I go out single handed majority of the time. When you're out there sailing things break from time to time and you always need to be ready to rig something up... just rigging something up to fix the rudder is bit challenging.

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Merrick
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Response Posted - 11/10/2012 : 07:19:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Not sure why you ask a question where you already have your mind set. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I asked to get some opinions. That's what the forum is for. I also called catalina and got some information. I learned a little about how they are made. I appeciate the warnings and hearing others experiences. In the end it's my opinion the rudder is structurally ok. All the comments were helpful in making that decision. That's why.

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