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C25 Achillies Heel?

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/21/2012 : 15:27:04

I've seen worse from a carrier deck. We were trying to get out of the way of a typhoon coming down on us in the late sixties when our squadron was on the Oriskany. I remember the flight deck being 65' above the waterline, but whether it was 60 or 65, we were taking solid water over the flightdeck, not heavy spray. and rolling through 80º (40) each way). Our destroyer escorts alternated having the forward third and aft third out of the water while taking water over the bridge. Quite a sight to see the screws of a 200' ship churning in the air.

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cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2012 : 12:48:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 [url="http://www.soundingsonline.com/dispatches/289402-video-plowing-through"]Another example[/url] of what one can encounter out there... just in from Soundings Magazine. A C-25 would ride up and over the big ones, feeling like an elevator gone mad, while crashing through the "smaller" (5-10') wind-waves on top of the swells. One of those breaking wind-waves at the crest of a swell (what looks like a white-cap from the bridge of the Kitty Hawk) could roll a 25-footer 360 degrees (if you're lucky). A Flicka would probably come back up, maybe even with its rig intact. A C-25--just maybe (but with no mast)... A C-25 swinger--I wouldn't bet on it.

BTW, I don't recall mention of the deck-stepped mast with its sheet-metal tabernacle... That's a no-no for a passagemaker.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the link. Impressive seas! Even more impressive was the comment that the helo had landed not too long before. THAT was good (and "lucky") piloting! Hope it was before the seas started breaking over the bow!

The storm I was in off of Cabo san Lucas in a 35 footer was certainly not as bad as the carrier or the other ship video. However, the spray from the tops of the waves being cut off by the winds made a "tunnel" we would drop into between waves, blocking the view of anything except the back and front of the trough. The spreaders would be about 5 ft below the spray "top" of the tunnel. The mast was a bit more than 45 ft. So I suspect the spreaders were at around 25 ft up the spar, and the mast was deck stepped at least 5 ft above the waterline. So that meant the "tunnel" was about 30-35 ft high inside. The pain of the wind driven spray as we would rise up out of the tunnel on a wave was unbelieveable and we would crouch down below the combings as it hit us. The masthead annemometer failed that afternoon while reading over 70 knots, and that was before the wind REALLY came up that evening. We had a storm jib and a trysail up, and that evening the storm jib disintegrated so we spent the rest of the evening riding under the storm trysail. We could not run off before the wind since the wind was from the west and would have carried us towards the Baja penninisula. The boat had a 4-5" dia stainless compression post inside the cabin, and it was flexing enough that it tore the salon table (which was contoured around it) off the main bulkhead. The hull-deck joint started opening up (but did not fail) and each time we hit the bottom of the trough we would get a jet of seawater come into the cabin thru about 5 feet of the joint, so the crew below was bailing continuously. It was when the compression post tore the table off that the crew down below handed out to the owner and I in the cockpit the cable cutters to cut away the rig if the mast went over the side (to prevent holing the hull with the mast). I seemed to be the only one that could hold her steady, so I was on the helm for most of the storm. When dawn broke the wind was still incredible, but more impressive was the very depressing sight of these huge waves all the way to the horizon in all directions! The HF radio allowed us to give our status and hear others. Drifter (a transpac winner) had cracked a main bulkhead, and one other boat had been dismasted. Most other boats had stories similar to ours.

It sure felt good to be alive!

By the next evening the sea and wind were back to "normal" and we were able to sail around Cabo and up to LaPaz to finish the race. When we were anchored in LaPaz and were washing the boat, we noticed that the water pooled an inch or so deep in the area of the mast step! Over time the boat came back to her normal convex deck shape however. But I am not sure any of us returned to "normal" that fast...

Chuck

Edited by - on

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2012 : 21:09:29

I served on the USS Kitty Hawk. We were in a storm several days out of Hawaii. Wave were breaking over the bow and we had a foot and a half of water in the focsle. The poor Destoyers with us should have3 gotten sub pay. RM2 Kevin J Burk

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rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2012 : 22:04:13

Vessel Assist should offer an extra service with heavy lift helicopters to carry you and your vessel to calmer waters. If you put up a big enough struggle, would the US Coast Guard offer service to you and your boat (I read theirs lift 4 tons, enough for crew and a C25). Next safety equipment item are boat yard lift slings (in case the ones they offer are too marring to your bottom paint).

Edited by - on

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2012 : 15:33:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 
Problem? In heavy seas, the boat will ride up on a wave, and fall into the trough below, leaving the keel in freefall. When it does catch up with boat, it smashes into the back of the trunk, causing it to break open after around three of these waves, sinking the boat.

What to do? If you get into a problem such as this, pull your sails, and pull up your keel and ride it out. It won't pretty, but you you will live to sail another day!!
[/i]"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I advocated pulling the keel up recently in another thread on this forum. All replies were against it. Thanks for your post Steve.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2012 : 17:04:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sethp001
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 
Problem? In heavy seas, the boat will ride up on a wave, and fall into the trough below, leaving the keel in freefall. When it does catch up with boat, it smashes into the back of the trunk, causing it to break open after around three of these waves, sinking the boat.

What to do? If you get into a problem such as this, pull your sails, and pull up your keel and ride it out. It won't pretty, but you you will live to sail another day!!
[/i]"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I advocated pulling the keel up recently in another thread on this forum. All replies were against it. Thanks for your post Steve.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Under the circumstances being discussed in the previous thread, that was, IMO, the correct advice. This advice is specifically aimed at the situation where the swing keel boat is in danger of falling off waves into the trough, and after you have lowered all sails. Given a choice between reducing the boat's stability somewhat and tearing a hole in the bottom, the former is the lesser evil. Otherwise, whenever the boat is under sail, the keel should be down.

In the previous thread, you were advocating raising the keel while still sailing, to reduce the risk of broaching, but in that situation, raising the keel would reduce the boat's stabilty and increase the likelihood of a broach.

This makes a good point. Raising the swing keel isn't always a bad thing to do, although it is not a good idea as a general rule. It depends on the specific conditions you are encountering, and the specific hazard you are trying to avoid.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5376 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2012 : 08:17:28

I have no experience with a swing keel but it sounds like a loose cannon in these kinds of extreme conditions. I do have a centerboard day sailor with a similar (albeit much less massive) mechanism to control the centerboard. I can stick a metal pin into it to prevent the c'board from accidentally retracting. Not knowing the exact anatomy of the Catalina swing keel, is there no way to pin it in place to prevent the mass from swinging freely when airborne and keep it from crashing thru the end-stop and the hull? Or, is it possible to rig a downhaul cable in some manner that would complement the uphaul winch?
If neither of these approaches are impracticable, can the keel be partially lowered to put some keel in the water but prevent it the ability to swing the whole way up and then down? Could the cable handle the strain of a sudden stop half-way down?
While I'd be very worried not to have full righting moment in a major tempest, I'd be more worried about the swinger holing the boat. Somehow a pin or cable would provide a little "insurance" in that case.

Edited by - Voyager on 11/25/2012 08:21:28

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2012 : 09:42:58

There was a lock-down device for my old C22 swing keel (although it really wasn't very effective), but there isn't a similar device for the C25 swinger. My guess is that the C25 swing keel is just too heavy to be able to pin it in place. I hate to sound like a broken record, but the C25 swinger was not designed to be sailed in a major tempest with 20' breaking waves. It's a lake sailer and coastal cruiser, where shelter is nearby.

I've never heard of a way to jury rig the keel to prevent it from swinging out of control. The best advice I have heard is to not get caught out in a tempest, but, if you do, follow Ken Cave's recommendation and raise the keel, lower the sails and try to ride it out.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4304 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2012 : 09:58:37

I guess if one wanted to go to the effort they could cut a hole in the hull forward of the keel and glass in another turning ball and the related hardware. Tighten up the cable when the going gets rough to prevent the keel from moving. Just don't run aground with everything tightened up.

It still wouldn't alleviate all of the other design issues that keep a C25 from being a blue-water boat.

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2012 : 19:34:14

There are many examples of sailors who have successfully crossed oceans in lesser boats than the C25 -- regrettably we never hear from those who are not successful! IF and thats a big IF you outfit a C25 properly it should be able to handle "off shore" work for an experienced crew. Optimally you would not have a swing keel, or pop-top, etc, etc. The real question is what do YOU want to do with your boat. Many just use it for day sailing in protected lakes/coastal bays. Some will venture farther. My guess is that if you are a true blue water sailor you would want a different design and most likely longer, heavier, more stoutly built, etc. The C25 is a great design and can handle more than most of us sailing them can handle -- and in many ways is far more seaworthy than many newer designs of equal size and pedigree. If you have the blue water urge, just make sure you talk with those more experienced, anticipate, and then modify as needed.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2012 : 20:14:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 ...If you have the blue water urge, just make sure you talk with those more experienced, anticipate, and then modify as needed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I just wouldn't spend the time, effort, or money to modify a C-25 swinger. That's starting with something that is definitively not designed for the purpose, doing some things the designers might not agree with (like locking down the keel), and turning it into a hodge-podge, possibly for more than the cost of switching to the right boat. And for what? To astonish the rest of us? Guess who won't be...

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/27/2012 : 20:55:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 ...If you have the blue water urge, just make sure you talk with those more experienced, anticipate, and then modify as needed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I just wouldn't spend the time, effort, or money to modify a C-25 swinger. That's starting with something that is definitively not designed for the purpose, doing some things the designers might not agree with (like locking down the keel), and turning it into a hodge-podge, possibly for more than the cost of switching to the right boat. And for what? To astonish the rest of us? Guess who won't be...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I agree completely.

Modifying anything to make it do something it wasn't originally designed for will never be what you wanted it to be and will be a compromise which just might take your life!

There will always be that weird feeling in your stomach every time the winds and seas pipe up. Did I forget something when I modified this boat? Hope nothing breaks! Did I use large enough stays for this wind? Enough hatch dogs to hold the pop top down? I wonder if I should have used 4 pintles instead of 3? Wish this boat had a fin mounted rudder instead of this transom hung rudder! Not a place or feeling you want to be in when you're far from a safe port.

If you want to go blue water sailing, get a boat designed and built for that purpose so you can enjoy your time offshore without worrying about the boat breaking!

Edited by - GaryB on 11/27/2012 21:37:58

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2012 : 15:13:59

Here's [url="http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/28/sport/sven-yrvind-sail-around-world-smallest-boat/index.html?hpt=hp_c2"]another approach for blue water[/url]... definitely "purpose-built"!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/28/2012 15:14:40

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2012 : 23:29:26

What is the purpose of this extensive thread?
The 25 IS NOT A BLUE WATER BOAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A stepped mast is not a BLUE WATER boat.

I cannot fathom (yes pun intended) why the question was asked other than to hurt the Association and our boats.

Please, 25/250 owners, weigh in and say how our boats are best used.

If you want to circumnavigate in at C-25 let know where to send the wreaths.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2012 : 06:25:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
 What is the purpose of this extensive thread?
The 25 IS NOT A BLUE WATER BOAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A stepped mast is not a BLUE WATER boat.

I cannot fathom (yes pun intended) why the question was asked other than to hurt the Association and our boats.

Please, 25/250 owners, weigh in and say how our boats are best used.

If you want to circumnavigate in at C-25 let know where to send the wreaths. 
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The purpose of this thread is explained clearly in the original post. The OP said "Can you help me out here? I am new to the C25, but what am I missing? I am not planning any trans oceanic crossings, but the C25 seems to be seaworthy, and I am not seeing why we shouldn't have a high degree of confidence in the boat."

That isn't a new or unique question. It has probably come up twice a year for as long as I can remember. Asking that question doesn't hurt either the Association or our boats. Asking questions like that, and getting honest answers, is one reason why this forum is popular and well-regarded by its members. The thing that would really hurt the Association would be if people would stop asking questions like that.

Edited by - on

Arlington
Navigator

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USA
196 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2012 : 23:16:09

Thanks Steve & all who have responded, I am certainly not wishing to trash the C25. I appreciate and enjoy my C25. My goal is to sail along the Gulf Coast from southern Texas to Key West on or about June 1, 2013, and I wanted feed back as to if this was a foolish idea or if it were truly feasible.

The replies to this thread have helped me figure out there are differences in a blue water and coastal cruiser. Just looking at my 1989,Tall Rig, Inboard Diesel, Wing Keel, without having a boat designed for blue water to compare it to, 'side-by-side', I was thinking what is there to worry about? I can now see that there can be considerable differences. Differences, that only those on this Forum with greater wisdom, knowledge and experience would know. Thus, my original question.

I never doubted that the C25 is a capable craft. The conclusion I have come to is that with a good skipper, exercising reasonable care, the Catalina 25 can handle both inland waters, and the coast just fine. So my plan is to sail along the Gulf Coast from southern Texas to Key West, within the following parameters.

• I am planning to take each day, a day at a time.
• Monitor the weather; allow time to wait if the weather is bad.
• Anchor, use a mooring buoy, or dock in protected waters at night.
• Have an inflatable, solid floor dingy (that I wish could be rigged with a sail)
• Make use of a Lowrance Elite 5 Chartploter, depth finder.
• Use a VHF with a mast antenna, a back up floating vhf portable and a portable Ham radio as a second backup.
• Step the mast when necessary.
• If we have to, motor in the Gulf Intracoastal Waterway.
• If necessary head inland if a Hurricane threatens the Gulf of Mexico.
• If the situation goes to hell in a hand basket, progressively:
1. reef the furling jib to the size of a storm jib, and double reef the main
2. heave to
3. be able to motor for up to 40 hours
4. use a Jordan Series Drogue, if we are washed out to sea.

• Make it all the way, (or make it as far as we could/head for port and go get the trailer) while we enjoyed it, and survived.

This sounds feasible to me.
Thanks
Doug

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/02/2012 : 06:26:21

That's a good cruising plan, regardless of whether your boat is a blue water boat or a coastal cruiser. We don't talk in terms of the worst case scenario to frighten, but because, when you go offshore, you can't always predict accurately whether you'll encounter benign conditions or the worst case scenario, so you should be sure you and the boat are up to the worst that you are likely to encounter. Your plan reduces the likelihood that you'll encounter the worst case scenario. IMO, with that kind of plan, you can have a high degree of confidence in the boat.

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Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/02/2012 : 08:14:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If we have to, motor in the Gulf Intracoastal Waterway<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
As far as I know, the Gulf ICW only goes as far north as Anclote Key. You will be offshore north of there. The only other thing you will have to pay attention to, during that time of year, is afternoon thunderstorm activity. We've been as far north as Tarpon Springs and as far south as Marco Island. There are plenty of places to duck into if you do not like what's happening offshore.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2012 : 09:36:44

The GICW picks up again at Apalachicola. You can stay coastal with a few stops around the Big Bend (depth is an issue in the many inlets, but there are some places good for a wing) in that area, St. Mark is worth seeing, or make the 50 mile jump between Alligator Harbor and Steinhatchee with good weather. That is a very doable and spectacular trip with a C-25 and an open schedule, especially with a log in the Mainsheet for Brian.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 12:18:25

http://www.amazon.com/Along-Edge-America-Peter-Jenkins/dp/B003IWYM4C

That's a lotta gulf to bite off in one gulp. Great boat for the Gulf. Kinda hot in June, less wind, more bugs. I could talk all day about the area between Destin and Appalach.

Go for it.

Edited by - redeye on 12/04/2012 12:21:02

KiteKraemer
Navigator

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191 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 13:25:19

I sail my C25 swinger in extremely high winds (45+) and the biggest swell possible on a river, (5-10'). There's no way in hell that I'd take it out into the ocean, bay, or any body of water capable of more than 5-10' swell. It's just so nasty at that point. So no. If the rudder got ripped off (which is easy to do)-- you're screwed. Knot to mention the pop-top issues. A tiller boat is just not designed for blue water passages,

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 13:49:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by KiteKraemer
 There's no way in hell that I'd take it out into the ocean, bay, or any body of water capable of more than 5-10' swell.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Swell or wave? If you meant wave, that would rule out the Great Lakes, my cruising ground.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 21:38:00

Long-period ocean swell is more manageable than short-period waves, although it's a little tricky when you're going with it ("down-swell"). Tillers are not the problem--they are often the last resort when wheel steering craps out. The more common problems are (1) blades that are not reinforced by internal metal grids, (2) designs that expose the rudders to whatever might be under the boat, such as a log or mostly sunken shipping container, and (3) a mounting method that puts all of the stress on a few points, such as pintle brackets, on the blade. A robust, blue water rudder has an internal stainless steel grid tied to a stainless steel rudder post that passes through a tube in the hull and sits on a bronze "foot" at the corner of a skeg or full keel. So if something slides under the boat, the keel or skeg hits it--not the rudder. And when the boat is heeled and pitching violently, the internal rudder post and grid prevent it from snapping off at a support point that's substantially above the bottom of the blade (as it is on the C-25). For example, take a look at the drawings for the Alberg-designed [url="http://robinhoodmarinecenter.com/photo-gallery/robinhood-yachts"]Robinhood (earlier Cape Dory) 36 or 40[/url], which has a keel-hung rudder with the prop protected by the keel and the rudder. That boat won't win any around-the-cans races, but it'll get you safely to New Zealand if anything can.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/04/2012 21:44:08

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 16:18:55

Yep. 6 feet on Lake Erie is definitely beyond the fun stage: 6 feet on the gulf is pretty enjoyable

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Mel Parsons
Deckhand

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14 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2012 : 19:17:28

The C25 is obviously not a blue water cruiser, but what are the limitations? You don't need to be that far offshore to be in some nasty situations. I know that several of you have have crossed the Stream to the Bahamas, with wings or fixed keels. With a decent weather window would a swing keel be safe to take across to the Bahamas or say from Key West to Dry Tortugas - trips that are certainly more than what I would consider near coastal, but still within a day's sail of land either way? I'd love to have a wing, but for now I have a swing. I have a fair amount of experience on power boats - I just applied for my 100 Ton Near Coastal Masters License, but the swing keel worries me a little offshore. Thanks.

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