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Rope clutches

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putzmeister
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100 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/01/2012 : 17:47:18

So I am going to ask Santa for rope clutches.

How many lines do you run through rope clutches on your boat?

1989 C25
Hull #5822

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2012 : 04:47:50

Currently none. However, I am thinking about adding two lines. One for a topping lift and one for a spare halyard. I have winches and cleats on the cabin top for the two main halyards. A friend has 6 lines running through rope clutches. Three are halyards, one is a reefing line, one is a Cunningham and one is the outhaul. Depends on what you want to run back to the cockpit.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 12/02/2012 : 10:12:42

Lutra (my old Catalina 25) has a 3 position Spinlock rope clutch on port. Two halyards and the spinnaker tack downhaul ran through those. There were also two jammers on starboard that were used for the reefing lines. This boat is equipped with a spinnaker halyard, but it is run to the mast. Behind the clutch was a Lewmar #7 winch.

My new Pearson 28-2 has 6 clutches (all Lewmar). Starboard has the following lines: main halyard, outhaul, reefing line, boom vang. Port has jib and spinnaker halyards. On each side there is a Lewmar 2 speed #16 winch serving the clutches.

The boom vang is free (using the default setup) on Lutra because it doesn't have a dodger. The 28-2 does, so the normal boom vang can't be reached and it needed to be run back through a clutch.

I prefer having the spinnaker halyard on the mast. Flying the spinnaker takes someone at the mast anyway to deal with the sock, and that same person should be in control of the spinnaker halyard.

Lutra has an outhaul and topping lift, but both were run to the boom and I was always fine with that arrangement. It's simpler than running them through to clutches and not much more work to manage. I figure that every line run back to the cockpit on a Catalina 25 costs at least $100 (for the turning blocks, deck organizer sheave, and clutch) and running the topping lift and outhaul back wasn't worth an additional $200 to me.

Finally, I prefer the Lewmar clutches to the Spinlock XAS now that I've used and installed both. The Lewmar ones release nicely and feel like more substantial portions of them are made of metal instead of plastic. They also tested better for Practical Sailor and are cheaper.

Edited by - on

putzmeister
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Response Posted - 12/02/2012 : 19:18:38

Thanks for sharing the above.

I had Lewmar clutches on a previous C25. A few here have had high praise for the Spinlocks - but now I'll probably stick with the Lewmars.

I'm thinking a pair of doubles; main halyard, outhaul, single line main reef and boom vang.

The area for placing clutches on the 1989 (and newer) deck are narrower. I hope doubles will fit.

Edited by - on

sfsmith
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123 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2012 : 13:43:50

The Lewmar double rope clutches will fit. I installed them during the summer. I'm a minimalist, so I have the main halyard and the aft reefing line on the starboard side and just the forward reefing line on the port side. I might add a Cunningham, just to use the fourth slot. They work great, and simplify reefing. A word of warning: Don't trust the installation template Lewmar prints on the package. The holes are way off. I used the clutches themselves to mark the drilling locations and it worked out fine.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2012 : 13:49:38

I have 6. Three to port and three to starboard.

1. Main Halyard
2. Jib Halyard
3. Spare (Spinnaker) Halyard
4. Boom Vang
5. Reef 1
6. Reef 2

If we flew spin I might want more.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2012 : 15:20:03

Get triples on each side! You'll eventually find a use.

Edited by - on

putzmeister
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Response Posted - 12/03/2012 : 19:33:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 Get triples on each side! You'll eventually find a use.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Jonathan, you've installed a triple on your '89? That would be great.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 21:24:56

Clutches are cool, and the more of them the better. Except they're not always appropriate.

First, they're really expensive, and I'd suspect that most of us could find other important projects to put that money toward instead.

They also take up a lot of space. Clam cleats side-by-side allow more parallel lines to be run back alongside the pop-top. I have five lines into clam cleats on the port side of my '80 pop-top, and I'm considering adding a sixth.

Clam cleats are also self-tightening, and I've found them less likely to slip once set. With clutches it's critical to match the line size with the range of the particular clutch. It might be impossible to install a triple clutch if the lines aren't all the same size. On the other hand, I was able to expand a clam cleat for a larger line by splitting the aft end and tightening-down the aft screw so that the flaring shoulder of the screw head wedged the split open.

All that having been said, however, there are a couple of good reasons for clutches. One, of course, is the ability to quickly release a line that's under a lot of tension. That's important when a line was tensioned hard on a winch.

The other reason becomes apparent when more than a couple of lines are to be led to a cabin-top winch.

Clam cleats work when the line is pulled straight back, but only one line can be directly in line with the side of the winch drum. When that line is on the winch it runs right over the cleat, making it easy to secure after tensioning. Other parallel lines would have to deflect to varying degrees. They can be lifted out of their cleats and wound around the drum, but once tight they no longer line up with the cleats and would have to be bent laterally to be able to secure them into their respective cleats. Bending them and forcing them into the cleats as the tension is released off the drum is tricky, especially the farther out-of-line the cleat lies (it's not as much of a problem if the clam cleats are well forward of the winch but there are practical limits to that: one can only reach just so far forward while holding tension on the tail coming off the winch, and a dodger can impose a very specific limit).

For most control lines on a 25-footer (other than the sheets, of course) a winch probably isn't necessary. In fact, it might not be advisable to crank too much tension into the lines that put strain on the gooseneck fitting. And without a cabin-top winch, clutches probably aren't really necessary at all.

I'm laying this all out to counter the natural lust some of us (myself included) feel toward more and cooler toys. I'd caution anyone to thoughtfully analyze whether they really need clutches before spending those precious boat units. Case in point, I have a nearly brand new Spinlock XAS/3 triple that I put on and then very soon replaced with a double. The triple fit OK by itself, but when I wanted to add more control lines I found I didn't have enough room. I've been meaning to put it on Craig's List, because I'm quite satisfied with just the double.

So, if Santa has a pair of triple clutches on his sleigh with your name on them, great! If you want to run three lines to a cabin-top winch, clutches are better than clam cleats. Otherwise, think about how you might actually lay out your control lines coming aft, especially thinking ahead to the possibility of adding more lines later. Expensive (but way cool) clutches may not be the best way to go.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 12/07/2012 : 04:54:19

I've used Cam cleats on a 22ft boat halyards for years. No problem. About to add one to my 25 when I get the round tuit. ( for the reefing line. )

I expect the load on the reefing line gets pretty well dissipated between all the blocks and leads it has to go through...

And again... I sail on an inland lake.

I just love all the new terms I learn on this forum... "Leeward Peek" and now... "Clutch Lust"

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2012 : 07:09:12

Lee is dead-on, especially about line diameters. Every clutch has a range (max and min), outside of which a line won't fit or will slip.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 12/07/2012 : 07:58:51

I have two singles that the previous owner didn't install, nor did I. I intended to, but never got around to it since the camcleats are smaller, handle 3 line sizes and work fine. The lines are lead to the cockpit winches when I want more tension. Camcleats are harder on the lines, but I haven't seen noticeable abrasion yet.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 12/07/2012 : 08:25:08

<< Camcleats are harder on the lines, but I haven't seen noticeable abrasion yet. >>

Yepper... I cut off the end of the line at the sail every year so the cam ends up biting a different section, and a new knot at the bitter end.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 12/07/2012 : 12:46:35

Lee mentions clam cleats, later posters are talking about cam cleats. Which did you mean Lee?

Cam cleats are the ones with two cams that tighten against the line. On a stock C-25 they are on the main sheet, vang, and traveller. They cost about $35ish depending on size.

Clam cleats have no moving parts and the line jams in them. They are frequently used on the boom for the outhaul and topping lift. They cost about $10ish.

The nice thing about (proper) clutches compared to cam cleats is that they'll release under load. Cam cleats only release if you first pull the line tighter. This may be impossible on something like the halyard.

Line sizing is an issue with clutches, but on a C-25 you can make everything pretty close in size. Lewmar and Spinlock clutches come in size ranges of 6-8mm and 8-10mm. The 6-8mm ones will work for major load lines (halyards) and small control lines (outhaul, topping lift) on a C-25. On my new larger boat I have a mix of Lewmar 6-8mm and 8-10mm clutches depending on the line.

Edited by - on

putzmeister
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Response Posted - 12/07/2012 : 19:31:11

By coincidence, pyacht had a 1 day online sale yesterday. I picked up a pair of Lewmar D1 doubles for $90 each with free shpping. The area in front of the cabin winches is a bit narrower on the 1989 (and newer) deck design, hence, the choice of doubles.

Thanks again for all of the above - it helped confirm my choice!

Edited by - on

iwillnotsubmit
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Response Posted - 12/08/2012 : 07:37:02

I currently have a double clutch on each side of the cabin top. This winter one project is to add another double to each side so all controls lead to the cockpit. Port side - jib halyard, boom vang, topping lift and main out-haul. Starboard - reef line 1, reef line 2, main down-haul(?), main halyard. I know I do not need a clutch for all these applications, but I think it will be very organized and look clean. I have a bimini that mounts to the genoa car tracks, so it is not very easy to climb forward to the mast. Before I sailed my C25, I thought a double on each side would be sufficient. But after sailing her for half a season I have many upgrades to complete before next season. Can't wait til the spring launch!!!

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 12/09/2012 : 01:19:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Lee mentions clam cleats, later posters are talking about cam cleats. Which did you mean Lee?...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was talking about clam cleats, like: http://www.apsltd.com/c-1031-clamcleats-fairleadcleats.aspx

Ronstan calls them "V-cleats", and they make a line of captive-line units in carbon-fiber-reinforced composite that work very well.

Cam cleats are even wider than clutches, so it's difficult to mount more than about four of them in the narrow space alongside the pop-top, even staggering them. They do hold well - better than clutches or clam cleats - so they're a good choice for halyards, especially if there are only one or two lines on a side and they're used in conjunction with a cabin-top winch. To work best they need to align fairly closely with the side of the drum, like clam cleats or V-cleats. A line that bends too dramatically as it comes through a cam cleat sometimes holds one of the cams open when you ease the tension, allowing the line to slip back a bit.

If you don't use a cabin-top winch, clam cleats (V-cleats) are easier to set than clutches, especially if you really need tension. I can grab a line with both hands (even wound around one of them) and put a foot up on the bulkhead to pull back with the weight of my body. By pulling slightly downward at the same time, the line automatically wedges into the cleat as I ease off. With clutches it's necessary to lean forward to close the lever, and I find it pretty much impossible to maintain all the tension I've pulled when I do that. That's not an issue when the line is held on a winch until the clutch is set.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 12/09/2012 : 08:18:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I was talking about clam cleats, like: http://www.apsltd.com/c-1031-clamcleats-fairleadcleats.aspx
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the clarification, that was my understanding and I wanted to make sure that everyone was thinking about the same device.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> With clutches it's necessary to lean forward to close the lever, and I find it pretty much impossible to maintain all the tension I've pulled when I do that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't get this. Proper clutches (Spinlock XAS, Lewmar D1 and D2) act as one way devices when the lever is closed. You can close the lever and continue to pull on the line and it won't slip backwards. I think of them as zip ties for line. There are cheaper devices (Spinlock calls them "stoppers") that don't have this feature and where you do have to clock the lever with your final tension, but those devices aren't very common.

When I'm using a clutch I leave it open until I'm close to final tension, then I close it and pull the line to my desired tension. This is like a cam cleat.

I personally find clam cleats hard to use when the line tension is low (like on a toppling lift). You need to put some artificial tension on them to get them to set. Clutches don't have this issue.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 12/09/2012 : 11:53:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
...Proper clutches (Spinlock XAS, Lewmar D1 and D2) act as one way devices when the lever is closed. You can close the lever and continue to pull on the line and it won't slip backwards...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is true, but they impose a significant drag, which reduces the tension forward of that point for whatever tension you put on the tail of the line. They also put a lot of wear on the sheath of a line that's dragged through them.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I personally find clam cleats hard to use when the line tension is low (like on a toppling lift). You need to put some artificial tension on them to get them to set. Clutches don't have this issue.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You're right on that point as well. I haven't experienced a problem with my topping lift, which is sized to snug well down into the cleat, but a spinnaker tack/downhaul might have to be manually set in really light air. I'll check that out.

Thanks for the discussion, Alex; these are all points that someone should consider when planning for a set of control lines led aft.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 12/10/2012 : 05:22:29

I was talking about either, but specifically these cam cleats....

The "plastic" ones seem to release easier ( rather than the metal )

http://www.apsltd.com/c-308-HarkenCamCleatsAccessories.aspx

I use both and I've used Cam cleats for halyards on a 22ft boat without any problem releasing them under load, without pulling them aft first. Pull them up and they release.

I use clam cleats on my jib sheets and love them. ( search clam cleats on west marine. the "major" one.

I found it faster, easier and cheeper than a clutch.

I'd do the same on a 25 foot boat where I sail. I would not try it on a 30 foot boat in San Fran.

Edited by - redeye on 12/10/2012 06:08:43

Ape-X
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USA
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Response Posted - 12/10/2012 : 10:25:05

Ray, We have the exact same setup for the jib-sheets, they work GREAT! much faster then a half hitch around a cleat or any other setups I've seen....

Edited by - on

mrapkins
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Response Posted - 12/12/2012 : 07:05:14

Interestingly, in the UK, we call clam cleats "jam" cleats. Seemed like an accurate description of their operation too.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Lee mentions clam cleats, later posters are talking about cam cleats. Which did you mean Lee?

Cam cleats are the ones with two cams that tighten against the line. On a stock C-25 they are on the main sheet, vang, and traveller. They cost about $35ish depending on size.

Clam cleats have no moving parts and the line jams in them. They are frequently used on the boom for the outhaul and topping lift. They cost about $10ish.

The nice thing about (proper) clutches compared to cam cleats is that they'll release under load. Cam cleats only release if you first pull the line tighter. This may be impossible on something like the halyard.

Line sizing is an issue with clutches, but on a C-25 you can make everything pretty close in size. Lewmar and Spinlock clutches come in size ranges of 6-8mm and 8-10mm. The 6-8mm ones will work for major load lines (halyards) and small control lines (outhaul, topping lift) on a C-25. On my new larger boat I have a mix of Lewmar 6-8mm and 8-10mm clutches depending on the line.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 12/12/2012 : 16:53:54

Here a "jam" cleat is a horn cleat with one end that pinches the line between the horn and the mounting base.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 06:34:43

Good Point Frank... I'd forgotten about that one..

Clam, Cam, and Jam....

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 08:20:25

Hey red - with that setup, where do you tie off your spring line when docking? The cleat you removed to put the clam cleat there is likely the single most-used fitting on our boat. It ALWAY has a line attached to it.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2012 : 06:11:45

For the jib sheets, I replaced the clams with cams. I've had the sheets pull out of the clams, and feel that it takes more effort to secure. Also, when winching, you can easily pull the tail through the cam, rather than having to lock it down again in a clam.

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