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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Removing turnbuckles

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Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/11/2012 : 15:21:44

I have a '78 25, does anybody have any suggestions as to the best way to removed those damn enclosed, pencile style turnbuckles once they are frozen up? Im trying to replace just the turnbuckle but they are so old and neglected I cant get anything to spin.

So far I tried WD-40, then let it soak, then banged it with a hammer, and cant get any movement. I was able to remove the T-bolt from the lower portion of the turnbuckle set up, and if its any indicator as to how tight these are, the turnbuckle got so hot from the friction of loosening the T-bolt that I could no longer hold it with my hand and had to wrap it to continue. Now Im stuck trying to remove an equally frozen top bolt but with no leverage. By top bolt, I mean the bolt connecting directly to the wire rigging that spins into the top of the turnbuckle.

I thought about completely replacing the aft lower shroud rigging via CD but Im scared of the bill.

Should I try heating it up with a torch? Any other ideas?

Edited by - Sam Cyphers on 12/11/2012 15:23:01

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2012 : 17:29:12

I wouldn't have any confidence in swaged studs that have frozen so badly. Freezing can be caused by oxidation corrosion or electrolysis between the to components, and either cause will weaken the stud and probably the swage itself.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2012 : 18:28:55

Sam, WD40 is not the tool to use. Go to a hardware store and get some PB Blaster, aerosol can, yellow top.

Be patient.

Good luck.

And use open body turnbuckles when you do any replacement.

Edited by - on

binky
Navigator

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USA
115 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2012 : 19:25:17

Agress with Stu. PB is a much better penetrant than WD-40. Spray it in, let it soak ...might do it twice....then try to un-buckle the turnbuckles.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2012 : 19:30:52

It could be that they are welded in place due to thread galling.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2012 : 19:42:11

I'm with Dave... You're probably dealing with what's call "galling", when stainless steel virtually welds itself together where two surfaces are pressed together, such as in the threads in a turnbuckle. By the time you get them apart, the threads will probably be compromised. (Edit: I was typing this as Don was posting the same thing.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/11/2012 19:43:38

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2012 : 04:04:24

I had two life line turn buckles that were frozen together (galled/welded) I tried soaking with penetrating fluid for a week adding every day. Then finally tried heat. Ended up breaking them. Had to replace them. Hope you have better luck with yours.

Edited by - on

Kim Luckner
1st Mate

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USA
99 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2012 : 07:18:08

Sam,

I've been looking to replace those same closed turnbuckles. They seem impossible to adjust without vice-grips on the barrel. I've sheared several pins inserted thru the 1/8 dia "drain hole". I'm ready to buy new open frame turnbuckle bodies and found this source on the web; http://www.riggingandhardware.com/p-44446-turnbuckle-body-cb-open-516-24-x-5.aspx. Good price and seems like good quality, have a look. The problem with the closed stainless steel closed body is probably gauling of the stainless on stainless threads without any anti-seize lubricant.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2012 : 08:16:12

Kim:

I would recommend replacing the whole turnbuckle, not only the body. The same site sells that here:
http://www.riggingandhardware.com/p-44025-jaw-to-swage-tfb-532-wire-516-pin.aspx

Their pricing is average, you can probably get them for the same price locally if you have a well stocked local store. I bought new turnbuckles for my C-25 at Fisheries Supply in Seattle and paid a little less than what these guys are charging.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2012 : 12:58:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And how old is your rigging? If it's original equipment (from what year?), it's way past its useful life. Crevice corrosion develops in the cable strands down inside the swage, and in the swage itself. I've seen swages that were cracked due to crevice corrosion.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Totally agree with Dave, Replacing just the turnbuckles and thinking that the rigging is now good is a recipe for disaster. Bite the bullet and get new complete rigging, All of them and have some piece of mind. The round closed turnbuckles are way past their lifespan.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2012 : 13:06:52

Our local rigger was able to match the price from CD, and come out to teh boat for a inspection/install for an extra $100. its peace of mind thats hard to put a price on.

Also beware that the CD kit does not include a backstay. It is a second line item on your order, so be sure you are fair when comparing prices at your rigger's.

FWIW, my rig was built by the Rigging Shoppe in Toronto in under a week. www.riggingshoppe.com

I believe they will ship, I don't know if they can still match CD's prices. Doesn't hurt to call and ask.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2012 : 07:33:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And how old is your rigging? If it's original equipment (from what year?), it's way past its useful life. Crevice corrosion develops in the cable strands down inside the swage, and in the swage itself. I've seen swages that were cracked due to crevice corrosion.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Totally agree with Dave, Replacing just the turnbuckles and thinking that the rigging is now good is a recipe for disaster. Bite the bullet and get new complete rigging, All of them and have some piece of mind. The round closed turnbuckles are way past their lifespan.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree toally also! Several years ago I had an OEM closed body turnbuckle literally explode while under load. Sounded like a shotgun! It was on a lower, not an upper, so I was lucky that it did not result in damaging the mast.

ALL the standing rigging got replaced ASAP and I got open body forged bronze turnbuckle bodies.

Chuck

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2012 : 09:01:23

This is a great company: www.riggingonly.com/

Edited by - on

Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2012 : 14:05:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I'm with Dave... You're probably dealing with what's call "galling", when stainless steel virtually welds itself together where two surfaces are pressed together, such as in the threads in a turnbuckle. By the time you get them apart, the threads will probably be compromised. (Edit: I was typing this as Don was posting the same thing.

)

And how old is your rigging? If it's original equipment (from what year?), it's way past its useful life. Crevice corrosion develops in the cable strands down inside the swage, and in the swage itself. I've seen swages that were cracked due to crevice corrosion.

CD's stays and shrouds have bronze, open-body turnbuckles. You could see if a local rigger can make rigging for you for less--they couldn't for me. The price might be scary, but so is having a heavy mast come down.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I couldnt agree more, a mast dropping into the ocean is far more scary than the $165 on new lowers. I purchased the boat in May so I dont have a clue as to the last time any rigging was replaced but this cable/swage corrosion has me scared. Is there any way to check for this? I dont see anything wrong when I look at the swages, but maybe thats how the problem hides itself.

This is a new problem to me. Is it common? Is there any way to prevent it (other than replacing)? I thought stainless steel was used for sailing because its resistant of these kinds of problems?

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2012 : 14:47:45

Common? Yes. Can you visually see it? No unless you have x ray eyes and are able to see through the swage. The corrosion occurs down inside the swage, Not on the outside. Slowly over time the grip the swage has on the wire loosens due to the disintegration of the metal until....

This type of corrosion happens in cracks, Joints etc. Anywhere the two mating surfaces get wet and never really dry out. Think Athletes foot. This is why there is a set lifespan on the rigging. My boats an 87 and When I bought her 4yrs ago I was sure the rigging had never been changed so for my own peace of mind I got new rigging from CD last year.

Edited by - islander on 12/13/2012 15:04:33

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2012 : 15:00:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sam Cyphers
 ...Is there any way to check for this?... I thought stainless steel was used for sailing because its resistant of these kinds of problems?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Stainless resists corrosion by forming a very thin, almost impervious film of "corrosion" on its surface, protecting the underlying metal. That film is the cause of galling--it's what "welds" two pieces of SS together. In the absence of oxygen, the film might not maintain itself and thereby the integrity of the metal, allowing a deep crevice to form.

About the only reliable way to check the cable down inside a swage is x-ray, which is sometimes done on large boats and is probably impractical for ours. Periodic replacement is the only realistic way to protect yourself--the period depends on whether you're in salt or fresh water, how warm your weather is and for how long, how much abuse you put your rigging to, etc. People seem to agree on 10-15 years as the range, with the Florida coast at the short end and northern lakes at the long end. The rigging will most likely last longer than those numbers--the $64K question is "How much longer?" (You don't want to find out the definitive answer!)

The upper shrouds, forestay and backstay are more critical for safety than the lower shrouds--if you want to spread your expense a little, I'd do the four that go to the top first, and the four lowers later.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/13/2012 15:10:28

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 07:06:12

<< Periodic replacement is the only realistic way to protect yourself >>

IMHO..

and Back up your rig. Always leave the jib halyard attached forward when not in use. A topping lift to the mainsheet somewhat backs up the backstay.

I've actually always wanted double backstays, but then I'm inland, with no salt, and the rig have been replaced twice so I think it is overkill... and after seeing a sailboat hang from the rigging I'm feeling better about the strength....

Maybe we could pay a bridge tender to give us the "rigging stress test"!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 08:45:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 ...and after seeing a sailboat hang from the rigging I'm feeling better about the strength...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">In the recent report, most of the rigging didn't survive.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/14/2012 08:46:35

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 10:08:24

<< In the recent report, most of the rigging didn't survive. >>

Yes but I thought the 28 min hang time was impressive for a salt water boat

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2012 : 14:25:17

In that situation (hanging by the mast), the mast step bolted to the coachroof probably has something to do with holding the boat up.

Edited by - on

putzmeister
Navigator

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100 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2012 : 06:11:04

I believe Garhauer is the manufacturer of the bronze turnbuckle + they have the best price. I have upgraded to these on two C25s. First discovered them on a Capri 22.

See the 5/16" unit (TB-4BSC):
http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=86

Good luck!

Edited by - putzmeister on 12/16/2012 06:18:32

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2012 : 07:05:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 In that situation (hanging by the mast), the mast step bolted to the coachroof probably has something to do with holding the boat up.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

I don't think so.... I looked at the boat afterwards. The tabernacle has slots so the mast step did not look like it had sustained any loads. The rig failed at the masthead. The masthead fitting shattered, and one of the uppers that the boat was hanging on broke (hard to tell which happened 1st). The swedge fitting did not fail, the wire broke.

Chuck

Edited by - on

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