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Cat 25 restoration SK dilemma

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sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/12/2013 : 13:49:26

Upon removal of the swing keel it was noted that the hangers were installed upside down and the pivot pin was bent. The upgrade parts arrived Friday.

An earlier attempt to install the keel with the hangers installed correctly, revealed a binding between the keel and the trunk. Apparently when the repairs were made due to the cable failure some owners ago the interior geometry of the trunk was altered and the solution was to install the hangers upside down thus rendering enough interior clearance for the keel to fully raise and lower.

Without major surgery to the trunk or removing an uns
Determined upper portion of the keel my choices are
1. Install hangers upside down withe the upgraded hangers , new pin and bushing, and keel centering shims and have full motion of the keel or
2. Install correctly with a undetermined range of motion but it would be as strong as it can be given the design.

I might add that we don't have a trailer and have no plans to purchase one.

I am open to thoughts and suggestions . The yard will resume work on Momday morning January 14, and I have to tell them how to proceed.

Thanks.

Mike
Chariots of Fire
1981 Cat-25. sail number 2230
SR/SK Dinette Version

Edited by - on

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2013 : 14:11:10

Mike the keel hangars I think are made wider than need to be . the installer has to file/grind/or shave them down to fit your opening without binding. I believe that is in the instructions . I also think they include big washers to prevent binding . I installed large SS washers on the pin adjacent to the hangars. Call Cat direct to verify this .
Frank Law
"ABOUT TIME "
1983 # 3519
SWK SR

Edited by - on

sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2013 : 17:00:39

I did discuss the need to grind the hangers to fit. The issue is the upper portion of the keel rubbing, binding against that upper interior of the trunk. With the hangers installed upside down the kee is lowered about 1.25 inches apparently giving the keel enough clearance to fully raise and lower.

Thanks again,

Mike

Edited by - on

Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
59 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2013 : 20:15:56

Hi Mike,

I'm dealing with the exact same situation. Actually I'm going to be dealing with it in April once the snow is melted

Here are my thoughts: (and I'm eager to hear from others more experienced than me)

My hangers are currently like yours, "up side down" and I think that's not the best situation because that is not how the system was designed. I can't help but think that the lateral load on the hangers is greater without being nested into the hull.

When my keel is all the way down it rests on the forward edge of the trunk (I think this is normal) - I had a crack develop there that started leaking. I never grounded so I can only assume it developed from stress or wear (I keep my boat moored in a less than calm cove) It is now repaired but it started me wondering about the way my hangers are set up and if their "up side down-ness" contributed to the problem.

I've had the boat for two seasons and sailed in some pretty rough seas and the keel is still there - so I wonder, are the up side down hangers really a problem I need to address? I think the answer to that is "Yes" because I keep thinking about it and I won't relax until they are "right side up" as was intended.

So then that got me thinking about your exact question - is the reason they were put in "up side down" because of a clearance issue? or was the boat yard/PO who did it just clueless? If I correct them and there is a clearance issue, how is that going to impact the integrity or the system?

Like you said - it is about an inch to two difference in depth, if the keel doesn't have clearance it will hit the top of the trunk before it rests on the leading edge. My thinking is that as long as the keel is shimmed so it doesn't slop around from side to side that hitting the top of the trunk rather than resting on the leading edge isn't a "big deal" compared to the benefit of having the hangers installed correctly. What I can't visualize (and don't have the geometry skills for) is to tell how much "arc swing" the keel will be prevented from completing if the 2ish inches does cause the top of it bind on the top of the trunk. And for me thats a "Big If" because I don't know if the keel will hit the top until I try.

If it does hit - I'm resigned to taking it to the boat yard and having them chop off the top of the trunk and re-building it properly. Just for piece of mind.

Not sure that answers or helps, but I'm keen for others to chime in.

Regards,
Todd

Edited by - on

BCG-Woodbury
Mainsheet Editor

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USA
396 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2013 : 09:32:07

Hi SK Problem guys -

May I suggest making an accurate model of the pivot section out of wood or foam so you can experiment with a light-weight piece and also be able to swing the model through it's whole range of motion. Maybe you can make the model and lend it out to others with the same SK problem. Just a thought.

Edited by - on

sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2013 : 10:43:05

Todd,

I think I will call Catalina Direct on Tuesday and get their opinion. after a haul out, bottom paint, a couple other minor fixes, and the expected keel repairs my budget can't support trial and error with the keel. I may have to go with all the upgrades already purchased and install upside down. I will let you know what Cat direct says.

Mike

Edited by - on

sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2013 : 10:50:00

Making a model would be a great idea of the boat was in my backyard. It is at a boat yard, I work in Oregon the boat is in Washington, and my annual maintenance budget is just about gone.

Mike

Edited by - on

Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
59 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2013 : 11:06:05

Mike,

I'd be very curious to hear what CD has to say. As for putting them back in "Up side down" - sounds like a good plan to keep the budget under control. It's "worked" that way for at least 2 seasons (probably much longer) on my boat without a problem.

I really like the idea of a foam "mock up" I think that the easiest path for me to test without having to get the boat yard involved.

Take care.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2013 : 15:17:25

If the boat is out of the water how about spraying some PAM or similar substance inside the keel truck area and then fill the keel truck with spray in expanding foam and let it set up. Once it's setup pull the whole shabang out of the keel truck and see where the restriction is in the keel truck.

You might be able to reach up in the trunk in the tight area and grind out the offending area so the keel will swing properly with the hangers installed correctly.

Then again, if the boat is on the hard you could get a bright flashlight, lay on your back, and just look up in the keel truck to see where it's hitting.

Another possibility, although remote, if the keel pin has ever been replaced it's possible it wasn't re-installed perpendicular to the keel and as the keel swings up into the trunk it moves sideways and binds against the side of the trunk.

Just some things to think about.

EDIT: One more possibility, if the keel pin has ever been replaced maybe it was not installed precisely at the center of the pivot point and the keel is moving in an elliptical arc causing it to move up against the top of the keel truck as it pivots.

Edited by - GaryB on 01/13/2013 15:22:51

sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2013 : 21:46:10

Gary,

That is a really good idea. I wish I was closer than 400 miles to the boat. I will have another talk tomorrow morning with the yard manager. The discussion with the typically very helpful tech folks at CD will have to wait unti Tuesday when they open.

Thanks,

Mike

Edited by - on

sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 17:20:23

Gary, Yachtfish Marine, of Port Orchard, Wa must have heard your suggestion for that is exactly what they did. Guess what. it all fits with the hangers in the upright position, the keel pivot hole has been bored out and the 1.25" bushing press fit, the Catalina Direct folks recommend that the hangers also be set in epoxy and they will do that as well. So the keel, wht the centering shims will now be quiet and as strong as can be.

Also, if anybody in the Puget Sound area is looking for a free haul out contact Paul at Yachtfishmarine.com. Our C-25 and H466 benefitted from the free haul out. It is good until the end of January. Nice folks and a nice yard.

Mike

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.