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Sold my C-22 buying a C-25 SK Questions

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hubbardbilly
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/07/2013 : 03:53:07

Hi everybody! I'm new to this forum and I've been reading the forum threads. GREAT resource for me since I'm upsizing from a C-22 SK to a C-25 SK this winter. We've got 3 kids and they loved the C22 but, obviously, it was a bit too small for our growing family. The C25 seems like a logical step up and we can save some money by keeping it trailered in the winter at home (which also allows for maintenance, etc...).

So, I've got a few nagging questions about the boat I'm looking at. She is a '78 SK and everything appears to be well maintained. She's on blocks at a marina with the mast up so I was able to check out the standing rigging, etc. Everything looked really good. Mast foot looked well maintained and no evidence of rot, etc..

Here are my "kickoff questions":

1. I found a trailer that would suit the boat perfectly. It's a dual axle with a bayliner buccaneer sitting on it. The owner said I can buy the trailer alone for a reasonable price and it's in good shape. Question: With the bayliner, which has a shoal keel, will I need to make any bunk-height mods to hold the C25? How would I measure to make sure???

2. The C25 has a fixed rudder (not a pop up). So, doesn't that defeat the idea that you can pull close to shore like I did with my C22? Is this standard on the C25 SK?

3. The bottom has layer upon layer of anti-fouling paint which I need to scrape and start fresh. Best tool to scrape the easy stuff without damaging the hull? I sanded my C22 since the ablative paint was only 2 layers thick, but the C25 has big chunks flaking off.

Pics of my soon-to-be new boat for condition reference:

https://picasaweb.google.com/hubbardbilly/C25Pics#

I'll have dozens more questions to come I'm sure! Thanks everybody in advance for your help. Quick intro: I'm a former Navy Officer and I live in RI with my wife and 3 kids under 7. We sail the Narragansett Bay out of East Greenwich. Best sailing in the world!!!

Billy

Billy H.
South Kingstown, RI
FMR Navy SWO(N)
Owner 1978 C25 SK #776 "Hubbard Hull"
PO 1981 C22 SK #10057 "Spring Fever"

MY C25 SAILING PHOTO ALBUM:
https://picasaweb.google.com/hubbardbilly/C25BranfordCTToEastGreenwichRI?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNquqaL8mpDBHw&feat=directlink

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2013 : 08:59:57

Welcome and congratulations! I wasn't a swinger owner, so can't speak to the trailer questions... None of the C-25s came with kick-up rudders, but Catalina Direct is offering [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1415&ParentCat=82"]this one[/url] (for some serious coin).

For bottom paint removal, many folks here have found peel-away strippers to be the easiest, safest way to get about 95% off. Just make sure it's fiberglass-friendly. WM and other marine outfits sell them. The warmer the weather (and thus the hull), the better they work.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/07/2013 09:01:11

ed_spengeman
1st Mate

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USA
98 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2013 : 10:40:23

Hey Billy
Welcome aboard. THANKS FOR YOUR SERVICE. This forum is unbelievible for Catalina owners. In a little time you'll have plenty of responses. In the meantime, I'll mention a few items.

Don't know if you have had a surveyor look at it yet. If not, they can often give some good ideas about what can be done and how. Good $300 buckes or so.

Can't give you any info on the trailer. I have a swinger also and love it. You have some SERIOUS work ahead of you on stripping the hull. I have the same problem but not as bad. I got at it last year with an orbital sander and respirator. A big job. I'll do it a bit at a time. The thing I would have checked is the swing keel assembly. It is 1500 pounds of cast iron and needs to be secure. If a part breaks, it could hole the boat. It is meant to be down when sailing. Don't know if you are familiar with Catalina Direct. They have a $10 handbook with all the parts in it along with many hints. Lowell is the owner and great to work with. You can call him with parts-related questions. They have the swingkeel parts-winch, cable, ball,pivot, shoulders, etc. Either install it yourself and be SURE it is right or have it done by qualified personnel. The draft is 2.8'. That gets you pretty shallow but the rudder is a little proud of that. Other than that, the rest is 'soap and water". They are great boats and the forum is "priceless". Go back thru the pages on the site there's a wealth of info. Enjoy

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2013 : 11:13:58

I just splashed Pearl yesterday, so I can't take any measurements that would be helpful. You will need close to 3 feet from the waterline to the support for the keel. The keel is retracted fully to load/launch, but is then lowered to a support roller on the trailer to take the load off the lifting mechanism. The location of bunks/rollers will determine how high they need to be to provide that clearance. The easiest approach is to have the yard lift the boat to the trailer and then adjust the supports to fit. Well, the easiest is really to pay the yard to do it, but you can do it yourself if the will give you the hang time. Measuring the bunk positions on the trailer so you could determine where they would contact the hull would be another option, Once contact position is approximated, measure the vertical distance to the bottom of the keel. I would add 4-5 inches to be safe before having the boat lifted to the trailer, but it would be easy to determine what adjustments need to be made the next time the boat is off the trailer. I would be reluctant to attempt a ramp launch until the boat and trailer were matched. I would go out and take a photo of my trailer if it weren't blowing 30 and driving rain. At least its 70º. Welcome aboard!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2013 : 15:19:04

According to the specs, a swing keel C-25 has a draft of 2'8" with the keel up. A Bayliner 240 has a draft of 2'6" and the Bayliner 270 draft is 2'3". If the trailer you are considering had a Bayliner 240 on it, you will probably need to raise the bunks about 2-4". The thing is, with a shoal draft keel, the boat could rest on the keel pad with the bunks providing mostly balance. (Keel supports 60-70% of the weight) With a swing keel boat, you want an inch or more space between the swing keel and the pad so you can lower the keel onto the pad, with the bunks providing most of the support.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2013 : 17:07:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 According to the specs, a swing keel C-25 has a draft of 2'8" with the keel up. A Bayliner 240 has a draft of 2'6" and the Bayliner 270 draft is 2'3". If the trailer you are considering had a Bayliner 240 on it, you will probably need to raise the bunks about 2-4". The thing is, with a shoal draft keel, the boat could rest on the keel pad with the bunks providing mostly balance. (Keel supports 60-70% of the weight) With a swing keel boat, you want an inch or more space between the swing keel and the pad so you can lower the keel onto the pad, with the bunks providing most of the support.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Maybe I am not interpreting what you say above correctly. When we would pull our (previously owned) swinger, 100% of the weight of the boat is on the roller trains. During decommissioning, we lowered the the swing keel onto the keel pad. Only the bottom/forward corner touches the keel pad. Then all of the remaining weight rests on the roller trains. The keel does not support the hull on a swinger.

On a wing (our current boat) 70% of the weight of the entire boat rests on the keel pad, remaining 30% on the roller trains.

Now after reading what you write and what I write, I think we said the same thing!

Maybe someone will post some pix.

Edited by - OJ on 02/07/2013 17:32:35

sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2013 : 20:41:13

Having just done a serious keel job on our 1980 SK, I'm pretty sure that by looking at your keel pictures you have a gap between the keel and the keel hangers. If Ieft uncorrected this yields the classic and unnerving "keel Klunk sound" and wear on the keel pivot pin and the keel pivot pin hole. There are threads in this forum that show how the keel may be lowered at home. My only choice was to have a boat yard do the work.

Catalina direct has an excellent description of the problem and their upgrade to fix it. My boatyard did excellent work and the CD hanger upgrade system worked as advertised. Take a look a t some of the pictures found in the link in my profile.

I had three tours in Newport, all schools. We bought our first boat in Warwick, a 1977 Columbia 8.7 in 1983. Later, as an instructor at the Naval War College and by then four children we had a 1978 Columbia 10.7, both great boats that sailed terrifically. I remember Narragansett Bay freezing over in 1993 or 4.

You will enjoy the C-25, fun,fun,fun.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2013 : 20:51:38

I didn't look at the photos first time through.. She looks nice overall, but I agree that you're probably going to need to get personal with your keel early on.

Edited by - on

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2013 : 21:03:02

If you have a large build up of bottom paint check into soda blasting.

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2013 : 04:47:30

I can't address your swing keel issues but lots of good advice available here in the forum. As for scraping bottom paint. I would use a good two-handed scraper. Round the corners so as not to dig into the gelcoat, keep it sharp and be deliberate when using. As soon as you go robotic you will inevitably gouge something. As for strippers, check [url="http://www.jamestowndistributors.com"]Jamestown Distributors[/url]. Their fiberglass friendly stippers, such as Ultra-strip, are on sale at the moment. As someone noted earlier, air temperature is the key with best results between 60-80 F. Mixed reviews on stippers but I suspect some are due to users trying to use them in the cool spring temps. The manager of our local WM store actually did a project boat about 3 yrs ago to test/demonstrate various products from their catalog....everything from paint strippers to topside enamels and hardware. It was a great idea and clearly demonstrated that marketing and reality do not always match. IIRC they tried 2-3 strippers before settling on one of the Back to Nature products. I hope to tackle this same task come spring so please share whatever you learn. Now if we can just get past the little weather disturbance this weekend....

edit...Cannot find a statement online that Ultra-strip is fiberglass friendly, but Aqua-strip is

Edited by - glivs on 02/08/2013 05:00:17

hubbardbilly
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2013 : 04:50:01

Thanks everyone for the tips!

Newport was my Navy link to RI and I met my wift while up here at SWOS 11 years ago (time flies...). After I left the Navy, we moved back up here to start our family, although I'm really regretting leaving Charleston, SC when we're bracing for a Blizzard today!

As for the boat, I am familiar with the keel issues since I had the C22 SK. And I think I now understand the trailering issues. I'll go measure the proposed trailer and see how much clearance is between the hull bunks and the where the keel touches the roller support. I'll be sure to take photos so I can get some assistance in understanding how to raise the bunks. It's a load-rite with a Bayliner Bucaneer 24 on it. It has the roller-type bunks.

At this point, it's going to be a logistics challenge getting the boat in the water early in the spring. The owner doesn't return from Florida until April 15th, so I'll only have 2-3 weeks to get her ready to sail before I start missing out on the short summer up here. My priority is going to be the trailer (for obvious reasons; getting the boat home), and getting the hull stripped and painted by myself in those 2 weeks.

As for the Swing keel, I never removed mine on the C22, but it's starting to clunk and it needs to be done this year. I'm a bit hesitant to remove the keel myself since I don't have a good asphalt surface to work on. I do my work in the back yard where the wife lets me tinker. Maybe if I jack up the trailer and put it on blocks I'll have more access to the keel to drop it and inspect.

More to come! Fair winds and following seas...

Billy

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2013 : 11:24:44

As for removing the bottom paint, if it were my boat, I'd use an electric sander that has a vacuum attachment. Maybe go as low 60 grit for areas where paint is really built up, then 80 grit down to the gel coat. No picking up paint chips - everything gets sucked into the shop-vac. Use a bag in the shop-vac.

I have to give the prior owner credit for not being too concerned about the appearance of the bottom of their boat. I could never bring myself to letting that happen . . . and I spend less time on the water because of it!

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2013 : 11:35:33

Billy,

Be sure to build bracing for keeping the keel vertical while it is disconnected from the hull. Maybe Frank Hopper will see this thread and post a link to his pictures.

If you receive measurements from different people, keep in mind there are different frame designs - 2 designs from Trail-Rite alone!

Edited by - OJ on 02/08/2013 11:44:50

hubbardbilly
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2013 : 12:32:14

Is it OK to use something to "chisel" the old paint off where it's already chipped? Or am I risking damage to the gelcoat?

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2013 : 19:27:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hubbardbilly
 Is it OK to use something to "chisel" the old paint off where it's already chipped? Or am I risking damage to the gelcoat?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Painfully slow and sure you risk damaging the gel coat. You also risk burning yourself out on the restoration.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2013 : 08:37:17

If I may... I am doing a bottom job now on my Capri 25. With all due respect to everyone above... NOTHING gets off the chipping paint like a good scraper. Sanding would take, well, several years! As it stands, I have about 30 hours to scrape the entire bottom (which is now done). I have about 8 straight hours of sanding at 60 grit (with a filtered, canister sander) JUST to get to the barrier coat (and I have about 1/4 of the hull done). My take? Gouge, scratch oversand, whatever... you have to fill and fair anyway... NO you try NOT to do it... but you ARE going to do it!

So I am trying to get the last layer of pink (first bottom paint/ablative) off my boat. Granted my boat had like 10 layers of ablative on it. If you get into my album, you'll see the boat is 3 colors, pink/white/blue. Blue is either stained fairing compound (old), pink is the first layer of old bottom paint, white is the first barrier coat. Oh and the gelcoat is light blue. Yep I've gone through that too... Already bought Interprotect Barrier coat, and watertight fairing compound. It's a big MESSY job.

If I might... the ONLY other option that is viable, is a soda blasting. It's worth the money... if you are handy, you may even be able to do it yourself with tools from Harbor freight (for cheap).

Strippers work, but are slow and messy...

Edited by - shnool on 02/09/2013 08:38:20

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2013 : 10:11:24

I too removed the old bottom paint with a two hand scraper after first taking a whack with a sander and it actually wasn't all that bad. The brittle, flaking paint literally shattered as the scraper was drawn over it. After the bulk of the paint was removed with the scraper, I sanded smooth the existing barrier coat, spot fairing where needed, then applied a few more epoxy barrier coats.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2013 : 11:42:53

Yep, its a time thing... if you take your time, it's not horrible. The temperatures are the problem with the strippers... I can get it to 65 in my garage... that's it (at least this time of year).

Sorry I am no help on the swing keel/trailer thing.

So cool to have you here though... and good luck with your new baby!

Edited by - on

asduffy
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2013 : 12:41:34

I am new to owning a 77 c25 fixed keel. I looked into doing the bottom myself and just a couple ideas to check on before you get started. First, most yards I talked to would not let you do any sanding or scraping of the bottom paint as it is extremely toxic stuff and highly regulated as to disposal of dust and scrapings. I am certain that there are people here who know far more than I about this. For getting of the bottom paint (if they allow you to) the way I have seen them do it is a air grinder with a vacuum while waring a full air tight suit and a good ventilator. I watched a guy take off about 10+ layes of paint in a couple of hours this way. But I am sure he is a pro and has had years of experience. However if you want to try this, just go to a tool rental store and tell them what you need, dont forget to tell them you need a vacuum system with it too. Once you get down some layers you may find some blisters. Those should be ground out until you see good fresh fiberglass, then let sit to dry completely and filed with round patches of fiberglass and good resin and then gelcoat. Good luck ;)

Edited by - on

hubbardbilly
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/09/2013 : 13:41:49

How aggressive do i need to get with the old paint removal? I don't have any experience with fiberglass work. i was thinking that i would just get the hull smooth (remove big chips and sand it down) and then apply the new coat of ablative paint.

Am I missing something? Do I need to get all the way to the gelcoat? On my c22 I would just sand it smooth and add another layer.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2013 : 15:45:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hubbardbilly
 Am I missing something? Do I need to get all the way to the gelcoat? On my c22 I would just sand it smooth and add another layer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The majority of the bottom job pix on this website take it to the gel coat on older models, down to factory grey primer on later models. Are you considering a water barrier like 2000E? Are you aware that not all bottom paints are compatible? Have you encountered any blisters?

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2013 : 17:42:03

I might be going a bit extreme (stripping to gelcoat and smoothing as much as I can), but I can tell the original bottom job on mine was good, successive layers weren't... exactly what OJ is talking about probably (incompatible paints).

I try to stay within product lines myself... and have had good luck with interlux. but the 2000E does stick well to a smoothed/roughed surface.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5377 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2013 : 19:11:41

Several years back I had a "surface of the moon" bottom, which would not really hold paint very well, because as I rollered it on, big chunks of bottom paint would flake off. I decided that the bottom had to go.
I read a few books and found Don Casey's comprehensive tome on sailboat repair. In it, he describes how to remove bottom paint: a hand scraper.
So I bought one, and haven't looked back since. Trick of the trade? Sharpen it.
After I scraped the bottom clean, I coated the bottom with 6 coats of barrier coat. Over the top went the first coat of ablative bottom paint.

Passage with a fresh coat of bottom paint.

In the past few years, I've sanded off the surface layer and painted the ablative paint over the bottom. This year I plan to scrap some flakey areas and paint it over.

Edited by - on

iwillnotsubmit
1st Mate

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64 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2013 : 06:43:17

Welcome Billy, Last year I painted my bottom and it looked very similar to yours, many coats of paint with large sections peeled off or flaking. At first I tried a Orbital sander with 80 grit. After about 30 minutes I could see this was not a viable option. I looked into getting the bottom soda blasted. Here in Missouri there are few places that do soda blasting and I was quoted $1800 and told it would take 2-3 weeks and I would have to trailer the boat about 50 miles one way. No thanks! I started reading an article from Practical Sailor about bottom paint removers and they recommended Frammar's Soy strip. I was a little sceptical about the performance of this product, but was running out of options and decided to give it a try. I ordered 2.5 gallons for about $180. I tried the soy strip on a 4' x 4' area. I used a paint brush to apply the gel-like product as thick as I could and then covered the area with plastic wrap. 6-7 hours later I peeled the plastic off and the bottom paint was very soft and easy to scrape with a plastic scraper. Next I hit the area with the power washer, let it dry and used an orbital sander with 80 grit to remove the remaining paint. It was very easy to get all the old paint off with little effort. I only used about half of the soy strip to do the entire bottom, minus the keel (I used a grinder on the fin keel and faired it with epoxy). I was very impressed with the bottom stripper and the final result. Like I said the condition of the bottom paint on my boat was very bad and it had many old layers, but the stripper did a great job, is non-toxic and goes a long way. I have no connection to Frammar's, I just wanted everyone to know about this great product. Good luck with your new sailboat.

Edited by - on

hubbardbilly
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2013 : 05:58:01

Ok, back to the trailer...I found a pic of the bayliner sitting on the trailer. I haven't been able to get up to the boat to get measurements (the blizzard in RI sort of slowed down that whole process!!!). Anyhow, you can see what the trailer looks like. It doesn't appear that the bunks are really all that adjustable. Also, I suspect that the weight distribution will be much different with the swing keel given that more weight will be held by the bunks since you're just resting the keel on the frame. You're not really supporting the boat by the keel as it would stress the pin. Looking at this photo, I'm a bit concerned with how the bunk supports are angled. I'd prefer they hold the static weight vertically. I don't think the bayliner weighs as much as a C25 SK. I know the 240 (water ballast bayliner) displaces like 3000# and another 1000# ballast, but not sure about the 24 without water ballast.

Anybody else have this type of trailer and have any thoughts? I'm about to commit to purchasing the sailboat, but I have to make sure I have a trailer to bring it home from the yard!

Photo added to my original post album:

https://picasaweb.google.com/hubbardbilly/C25Pics#5843678398318665362

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2013 : 07:05:46

I'll leave the trailer comments to others, but I am not sure those roller stands adjust do they? ... Bruce, buddy, I am striving for your results... very nice work! Amen on sharpening the scraper... I had the dremel at the ready and must have done it a couple dozen times during the process... I am sanding now...

and

I got side tracked with installing a through hull for the depth sounder, and wanna get the last of the radio installed, but I'll be back to sanding shortly... (oh and have to install a bow eye and replace rudder bushings).

Edited by - shnool on 02/11/2013 07:07:51

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