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Sold my C-22 buying a C-25 SK Questions

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 02/11/2013 : 10:56:20

One can't really analyze from a photo, not that we don't try, but I would be wary of that trailer being adequate for a C-25. You are looking at a minimum of about 4,000# being supported by the rails. Without a central longitudinal member extending back to the axles (they must be at least 3500# axles) and cross-members with uprights, there can be a lot of stress on the welds at the forward end when you hit a pothole. I have a central tube that extends to a cross-member just aft of the axles and four uprights mounted on cross-members with each supporting 2 sets of 4 rollers, 32 contact points.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 02/11/2013 : 11:15:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hubbardbilly
 Anybody else have this type of trailer and have any thoughts?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yeah, your prospective trailer is looking a little light there . . . any capacity plates? Here are a couple/three pix for reference.

Edited by - OJ on 02/11/2013 11:35:14

hubbardbilly
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Response Posted - 02/11/2013 : 13:41:45

OJ, your trailer looks very similar to the one I'm looking at with the exceptions noted by Dave. I guess when I go to measure the bunk heights for the keel, I'll confirm the weight rating. If, in fact, they are 3,500# axles and the trailer capacity is ok, then do you see any issues with this trailer? What is the minimum weight capacity I need to meet?

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OJ
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Response Posted - 02/11/2013 : 17:57:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hubbardbilly
 If, in fact, they are 3,500# axles and the trailer capacity is ok, then do you see any issues with this trailer? What is the minimum weight capacity I need to meet?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Billy, the C25 comes in around 4,500 pounds and that's before you throw in gear. Judging by the photo alone the trailer you are considering looks woefully inadequate. I think this will become evident when you run the numbers. I'd recommend a search on this website and read other posts that discuss this topic. Will you be using the trailer strictly around the marina or on public highways as well? With all the boats (includng powerboats) that have been totalled in storms in recent years - I'd continue searching.

Edited by - OJ on 02/11/2013 19:39:26

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/11/2013 : 19:29:57

That appears to be a 21' Bayliner on the trailer--a considerably lighter boat. The angled supports for the rollers aren't designed to bear much weight--the boat probably sits on the keel, which you definitely should not do with a C-25 swing keel. (As stated earlier, the C-25 swinger sits on the bunks, and then the keel is lowered onto a support so its weight isn't supported by the cable when bouncing down the road. That support is then holding half the weight of the keel--about 750#). I'm afraid a C-25 SK would fold that trailer, and the extra 4' might create negative tongue weight. Also note that OJ's boat is a wing keel, and the keel can support much of the weight of the boat. That's a different ballgame.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/11/2013 19:39:13

hubbardbilly
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Response Posted - 02/13/2013 : 10:53:46

I'm going to be taking a look at the trailer again this weekend. If it appears that the tongue capacity is OK and the axles are both 3,500#, I was thinking on going ahead and buying the trailer with the plan to weld a horizontal support near the front that would support a vertical tube to hold the bow weight (like OJ's has) Also, I would be moving the roller bunks to a "vertical" position. Anybody see any issues with these ideas?

FYI, I think I can get the trailer just under $1,500 and it's in really good shape. I would guess the new "fixes" wouldn't be more than a couple hundred bucks.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/13/2013 : 11:59:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hubbardbilly
 If it appears that the tongue capacity is OK...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">By "negative tongue weight", I meant that a 25' boat on a trailer meant for a 21', with the swing keel pulled up (weight moved aft), might lift the tongue rather than putting the appropriate weight on your hitch.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/13/2013 : 22:09:39

OK, so I'm going to jump in here and be the bad guy.

I've been watching this post since the beginning. You originally asked for our advice on several issues. One of them being the suitability of this trailer for pulling a C25.

If you're only pulling the boat a short distance a couple of times a year this trailer MIGHT be OK.

If you're planning on taking highway trips with this rig I suggest you re-read what everyone is saying and think about the consequences.

Reading over every-one's responses my feeling is most everyone is trying, in a politically correct way, to lead you away from buying this trailer.

It has more or less been stated that the trailer appears to be too small and lightly built to carry a C25 safely. Unless you know how to build trailers, just adding a few cross braces here or there may or may not make the trailer safer.

Things rarely work properly when you try to modify them to make them into something they were not designed to be originally. They will always be a compromise.

I strongly suggest you keep looking for another trailer that is built to safely handle your boat and will not be a compromise or marginal for the intended purpose.

If you decide to proceed with this trailer, just keep in mind, if you get on the highway with this rig and something breaks, collapses, or you lose control of the rig you not only risk damaging your boat but you risk your life, the life of anyone who's riding with you (your wife and kids), and anyone that's anywhere near you on the highway.

Stuff happens unexpectedly. Can you live with the possible consequences? Is it worth the risk?

There are a lot of well seasoned/experienced boaters on this website. Please listen to us. We want you to be around this forum for a long time!

Edited by - GaryB on 02/13/2013 22:34:35

hubbardbilly
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Response Posted - 02/14/2013 : 03:54:55

Thanks for the advice Gary. Sometimes I need to hear from the "Dutch Uncle"!

As for the road-use, I would only be trailering to-and-from the launch each year. This is about 8mi each way to the launch. I would feel comfortable with the trailer if the capacity is not exceeded. The challenge is the initial boat "pickup" from it's current location, which is about 80 highway miles away.

You may have convinced me to do one of 2 things...either have the boat shipped up to my house from CT OR sail it in late April to the mooring (about 2 day trip in the Long Island/Fishers Island/Block Island sound). Problem with option #2 is that I wouldn't have the opportunity to do some of the work on the boat that I would like to get done prior to launch nor would I feel safe launching her without full-scale inspection and sea-trials. I'd have to pull her back out of the launch up in RI, do the mainteanance, and then launch again.

Oh, option 3 is if anybody has a trailer in the area I could borrow (or rent) to get the boat home in March, do work on her, and drop her at the mooring...

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/14/2013 : 08:10:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 OK, so I'm going to jump in here and be the bad guy...

Things rarely work properly when you try to modify them to make them into something they were not designed to be originally. They will always be a compromise....

...just keep in mind, if you get on the highway with this rig and something breaks, collapses, or you lose control of the rig you not only risk damaging your boat but you risk your life, the life of anyone who's riding with you (your wife and kids), and anyone that's anywhere near you on the highway.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Word!

Keep in mind that the C-25 is (I suspect) at least 50% heavier and 20% longer than that Bayliner.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/14/2013 08:15:01

hubbardbilly
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Response Posted - 02/14/2013 : 08:35:47

According to the spec sheet on the Bayliner 24, it's 4,100#, which is pretty close to the dry weight of the C25 SK. If it's a 21, then it's only 3000#.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/14/2013 : 19:10:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hubbardbilly
 Thanks for the advice Gary. Sometimes I need to hear from the "Dutch Uncle"!

As for the road-use, I would only be trailering to-and-from the launch each year. This is about 8mi each way to the launch. I would feel comfortable with the trailer if the capacity is not exceeded. The challenge is the initial boat "pickup" from it's current location, which is about 80 highway miles away.

You may have convinced me to do one of 2 things...either have the boat shipped up to my house from CT OR sail it in late April to the mooring (about 2 day trip in the Long Island/Fishers Island/Block Island sound). Problem with option #2 is that I wouldn't have the opportunity to do some of the work on the boat that I would like to get done prior to launch nor would I feel safe launching her without full-scale inspection and sea-trials. I'd have to pull her back out of the launch up in RI, do the mainteanance, and then launch again.

Oh, option 3 is if anybody has a trailer in the area I could borrow (or rent) to get the boat home in March, do work on her, and drop her at the mooring...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Option 4, buy a used 16' or 18' utility trailer, shop around for a used cradle and bolt it down to the trailer. While not perfect I think it would be safer than the trailer you're looking at. At least the frame of the trailer should have enough cross members to support the cradle properly.

Option 5, ask around for some local boat movers. If you only have to move the boat 80 miles I'm guessing you could get the boat moved properly for around $500 - $700. Less than half the cost of buying the trailer you are currently looking at. Have them drop the boat at a local storage yard and put it on stands so you can get the boat ready to launch.

Have them come back when you're done to move it the short distance to the water. Maybe another $200 - $300. You're still ahead of purchasing the trailer.

With the savings you can splurge and get a nice chart-plotter or make a nice down payment on a new sail!

Edited by - GaryB on 02/14/2013 19:12:13

OJ
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Response Posted - 02/14/2013 : 20:00:35

Thank you for stepping in here Gary. I was thinking we might have to do an intervention! Jeez, where were you when I proposed to my X?

Edited by - on

hubbardbilly
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Response Posted - 02/15/2013 : 05:38:38

Gary, thanks for the other ideas. I guess I was looking for a trailer to give me a long-term solution to avoid storage costs. If I can get a trailer for $1,500 now, I'll have no storage/moving fees next year. Basically a 1 year payback on the investment. If I keep the boat stored at a boatyard and launched, I'm looking at $1,000/yr in storage/launch fees and I can't do some maintenance like hull painting myself. I'm willing to make the investment up-front on a good trailer to avoid the long-term costs of storage.

Maybe the trailer I'm looking at is the wrong one, but I'll keep my eyes peeled over the next month or two.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/15/2013 : 19:37:11

If it's any help I spent a year or so looking for a trailer. I eventually stumbled across an almost brand new Magic Tilt trailer setup for Hunter 260. The original owner sold his boat through a broker and the new owner didn't want the trailer. He just wanted to get rid of it.

If I remember correctly the trailer was about 2 years old and only had a couple of hundred miles on it. It had never been in salt water either.

I had to spend about $400 modifying it to fit my C25 but I bought the trailer for $1,500. There's a link to some pictures somewhere on this forum.

Edited by - on

iwillnotsubmit
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Response Posted - 02/16/2013 : 07:08:55

When I bought my c-25 it came with a steel cradle, but no trailer. I found a 20' car hauling flat trailer for $1000. It has 3500# axles and handles the boat well. The only thing to consider with this set up is that I am at the legal height limit, 13.5'. It makes me nervous going under any low bridges or low lines, but I have not had any problems yet. This wouldn't be a problem for swingers or wing keels. Also, if I ever decide to sell the boat and the buyer doesn't want the trailer, it will be easier to sell a car hauler than a sailboat trailer.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/16/2013 : 07:50:33

A bit of a trip, but...

http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26079

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/16/2013 07:51:09

hubbardbilly
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Response Posted - 02/17/2013 : 06:14:56

I went yesterday, took some more photos and got more info on my prospective trailer. It's a "Long Trailer" which is a company out of NC that is no longer in business. I added the photos to my album (link below). Here are the details:
- It's got twin 3,500# axles with a class II tongue
- No hitch extender for launching.
- The tires are 13", so they're rated for 1360# each tire. This is the weak link. That's a 5440# capacity minus 1000# for the trailer and you've only got about 4400# to play with for the boat (I would remove EVERYTHING from the interior and the outboard and take those home first). They do make 13" tires that have 1480# EA capacity which I would install which would give me 5920# total.
- Frame is extremely sturdy with no rust or cracks.
- 4 Leaf Springs per axle.
- It IS a Bayliner 21' on the trailer. Displacement is 3000#.
- No brakes.
- Very easy adjustable roller bunks.
- I spoke with a former builder, Stu, at Long Trailers and he confirmed that the weakest link would be the tires.

Bottom line, I think it's a very close-fit to try and put a C25 SK on the trailer but I'm not 100% convinced that I can't make it work (I don't see any engineering reasons why the trailer wouldn't hold the boat with the right tires?). I know the brakes are a sticking point for many. I didn't have them on my C22 and I safely trailered. Very cautious on the roads with huge distance buffer in front of me.

I think my biggest concern is the boat length & shape. I would have to ensure that the keel has both enough slack to rest on the keel bunk as well as ensuring that the weight of the boat is centered over the axles. I can probably get the trailer for somewhere between $1,000-$1,500. Worst case scenario, the yard cradles the boat on the trailer and we can't make it fit safely with the right tongue weight, so I launch the boat, sail it home, and sell the trailer and call it even.

I know I sound like I'm justifying the purchase of this trailer. Am I completely insane? I might be. I'm an engineer by trade but I'm also probably blinded by the prospect of getting a good deal on this trailer and NOT having to pay storage, shipping, launching, etc... fees in the future!

https://picasaweb.google.com/hubbardbilly/C25Pics?authuser=0&feat=directlink

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/17/2013 : 11:22:33

As an ex-trailer sailer and (separately) C-25 owner, I'll throw my opinion in--worth about what you're paying for it:

Let's start with the brakes issue... A C-22 is just a little over half the dry weight of a C-25. It qualifies as a trailer-sailer that can be towed by a mid-sized SUV. In comparison, the C-25 is what I call a transportable boat, given a substantial tow vehicle (a half-ton pickup is generally considered minimal except by a few here) and a well-equipped, properly engineered trailer. With no brakes on the trailer and a tow vehicle smaller than a Freighliner, you could be looking at a jackknife trying to slow for a stop sign.

Next, design... Can you achieve the correct tongue weight with a trailer designed for a 21' load? Too much will reduce the weight and traction of the vehicle's front wheels, the risk of which is obvious. Insufficient tongue weight can lead to the opposite, or even the unhitching of the trailer in an emergency. The design of the trailer can limit the degree to which you can control the tongue weight--the C=25 will probably have to sit several feet further forward relative to the axles than the B-21 to get that right.

Now let's talk marketing... Over the years, it has been apparent here that people buy C-25 swingers (and the newer, more expensive wings) to be able to keep and haul them on trailers. Otherwise, why put up with the maintenance issues of a 1500# swing keel? A trailer is therefore a valuable part of the package, as you have said it is for you. Buyers tend toward fin keels if their plan is to slip the boat and store it at the marina, as I did. When a C-25 FK with a trailer is sold, the two items are likely to sell separately. That suggests that when buying a swinger, investing in the right trailer makes some economic sense from the standpoint of resale, particularly if the trailer will be kept out of salt water. "Right" means capacity, design, and brakes. A trailer from a 21' boat (smaller than your C-22) just isn't "right," and at resale time, it likely qualifies as a C-25 SK without a trailer.

In short, I think that particular trailer is a false hope. But I was taught many, many years ago (by an engineer who was my dad) that if something is worth doing, it's worth doing right. (...and that if you don't do it right, you'll probably "pay" in the end.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/17/2013 11:23:25

islander
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Response Posted - 02/17/2013 : 11:27:50

You say the boat is 80 miles away thus stopping you from working on the boat. My boat was in Clinton Conn. and was 100 miles each way from where I live on Long Island. We made that trip 7-10 times in the early spring to work on here and get things ready with the goal to sail/motor her back on Memorial day weekend. The water trip was 65 miles and we figured on a 2 day trip. Turns out we made the trip in 13 hrs with a perfect wind. We had a ton of fun on those day trips to Conn. and even more fun bringing the boat back by water. What I'm getting at here is that you seem to be trying really hard to make this trailer fit when there are other options that will give you more time to find a better trailer.

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hubbardbilly
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Response Posted - 02/17/2013 : 14:24:08

Thanks Dave & Scott. It looks like this trailer isn't going to work given the current owner won't budge on $1,500 and it needs new wheels and leaf springs just to meet capacity. There's $800 easily AND the trailer is probably not long enough. I could easily do the sail from North Branford to the Narragansett bay over 2 days and really enjoy it! That gives me the rest of this winter/spring/summer to hunt for the RIGHT trailer.

Scott, getting to the boat frequently to work on it might actually not be an issue since I pass through that area quite often for my "day job". It might all work out sailing her to the mooring. It's about 100mi (86nmi) by sea with plenty of anchorages/moorings/safe harbors along the way. I'm closing on the boat this week, so I'll be able to start cleaning her up soon!

Google image Branford CT to East Greenwich, RI:

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/17/2013 : 15:05:57

Good decision. When we bought Passage, we lived in Darien, CT, and she was in Noank, CT (by Mystic)--I made numerous 90-mile weekend trips to work on her before we sailed her down to Darien--a "2-day voyage" that we planned to do in three turned into four because of weather. As you know (via e-mail), you'll be going right through my neighborhood. However, 100 miles in two days (10+hour days) at that time of year is a push...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/17/2013 15:16:58

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/17/2013 : 15:35:25

Billy: Did you consider [url="http://providence.craigslist.org/boa/3536525739.html"]this one in your neighborhood[/url]? (I know nothing about it.) An '83 has some advantages over a '78--for example, the fuel locker molded into the cockpit (instead of a shelf inside the sail locker). Not knowing any details about your Branford boat, I'll also point out the roller furler on this one--a nice feature.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/17/2013 : 17:36:16

You are making the right decision to blow off purchasing this trailer. It was/is not designed to handle your trailer. You would be insane to try and tow your boat 1 mile much less 80 with no brakes.

Like the old Fram commercial used to say: You can pay me know - or you can pay me later.

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hubbardbilly
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Response Posted - 02/18/2013 : 02:33:09

Dave, I did see the one in North Kingstown as well as another one in Bristol, RI. I was really trying to keep the budget reasonable. The one I'm purchasing in Branford is a '78 but it's also in good shape (other than the bottom paint). I'm basically getting it for the same price as what I sold my C-22 for. If I could get the '83 for under $3,000 I might be interested. I'll make some calls...it couldn't hurt.

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