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Keel Repair Advice

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ftworthsailor
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Initially Posted - 03/01/2013 : 09:05:25

Does anyone know the best option for repairing the Catalina "smile" crack between the keel and the bottom of the fiberglass? Is it a simple bondo exercise or should I be fiberglassing over the crack after bondo, to give it more strength?

Catalina 25, Hull #779, Built 1978, FK/SR "Miss Natalie"

Catalina 25, Hull #971, Built 1979, SK/SR,"Sea Legs"

"if we get lost, we'll just pull in somewhere and ask directions."

Edited by - ftworthsailor on 03/01/2013 09:06:52

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/01/2013 : 09:20:03

What's the vintage? The later incapsulation ('83+) is different from the earlier cast iron. (Looks a little like encapsulated lead to me.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/01/2013 09:20:44

shnool
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Response Posted - 03/01/2013 : 09:21:18

If that's rust I see oozing out of that... I'd say you'll need to dig some more. I'm no expert... I thought these had lead keels are they steel?

Either way, I'd personally dig out far enough to see into the crack, and light it up. If it's just exposed to the keel, then do a little glassing to strengthen up (so another wiggle doesn't expose it again)... Use watertight 2 part epoxy (Interlux branded, but others will do), fair it up, barrier coat, and paint...

If you see cracks in the underlying keel itself (unlikely but possible), well you got more work to do.

Oh and having JUST sanded the heck out of watertight 2 part... um... hope you have stronger arms than me, and a lot of patience for it's slow drying.

That's probably just a hard knock smile though. Check bolts...

Edited by - on

ftworthsailor
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Response Posted - 03/01/2013 : 10:13:33

It is a 1978 C-25.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/01/2013 : 10:18:14

If it is a typical Catalina smile, then this is the factory recommendation for repairing it. http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/images/keel_factory_drawings/keel_crack_repair._from_catalina.gif

If the keel stub is deteriorated, then this is the factory recommendation for repairing it. http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/images/keel_factory_drawings/keel_construction_pre_may1988_from_catalina.gif

It looks to me to be more than just a Catalina smile.

(Those drawings are for the C27, but the construction and repair of the 25 and 27 is substantially the same in that respect.)

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/01/2013 10:20:02

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/01/2013 : 11:55:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ftworthsailor
 It is a 1978 C-25.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">So that's a cast iron fin attached to the fiberglass stub with mild steel (not stainless) studs. The base of the keel stub is cored with wood, which may be deteriorated. That deterioration can allow side-to-side swinging of the keel, which I'm suspicious has caused that somewhat excessive "smile" (at least on the port side). I would probably drill a few holes into that core from inside the hull and check for rot. If you find it, Steve has given you the prescription... If not, fill the holes with epoxy.

Your '78 bolts may be excessively rusty, partly due to that smile. That can make the "tighten keel bolts" step in the instructions difficult if not impossible--the nuts may be frozen with rust and/or the threads may be pretty much gone. You don't want to break a bolt in the attempt. Use Search in this forum for threads on "keel bolts" and how to sister in new bolts. It's not really easy, but several people here have done it.

Good luck, and get back to us with what you find.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/01/2013 12:11:08

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 03/01/2013 : 16:15:57

I have never seen a Catalina smile so I am not speaking as any kind of expert but I though the smile would be much closer to the hull of the boat. I have a 78 cast iron keel and have never seen any indication of a smile on mine. It appears to me someone may have encased that keel (with fiberglass?) sometime in the past and that may be just a fiberglass crack. Cast iron has a tendency to flake off and not crack like that as the cast iron has no uniformity when it is cast. Please verify if there is fiberglass present on both sides of the crack or not.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/02/2013 : 09:06:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 ...but I though the smile would be much closer to the hull of the boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think that's about the right level. The "stub" forms a sump inside the hull, which is maybe 6-8" deep... At its bottom is the cored fiberglass surface the keel is bolted to, which may be an inch or more thick. I don't think Catalina covered the seam with any kind of matting--from what I've seen on a few Catalinas, it looked like they smeared on something like Marine Tex and faired it down. That might be what's cracked here. (The fin keel on my '85 was thickly encapsulated lead, but the stub was apparently the same.)

It might be interesting to see, with the boat lifted off the keel somehow, how much the keel flexes side-to-side and if it does, what the bolts (studs) are doing inside the sump when it moves. I do think that "smile" is a little too big--more like a "scowl".

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/02/2013 09:28:04

OJ
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Response Posted - 03/05/2013 : 11:41:26

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/keels

Edited by - on

ftworthsailor
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Response Posted - 03/05/2013 : 20:23:50

Well, the paint has been removed and we ground the crack down to the fiberglass and steel. Here is what we found.

Looks pretty good. Now to do the repairs.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/05/2013 : 22:05:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ftworthsailor
 ...we ground the crack down to the fiberglass and steel.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good work! FYI, and in the unlikely case it affects some decision, that's cast iron--not steel. Now I'd coat the bare metal with "rust reformer" ASAP--it's the best prevention I know, and is meant to be painted over.

The gap is another subject altogether. What's your plan?

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/06/2013 : 09:29:22

Wow.. I never knew it was that low either.. Thank you for posting the pics.

Edited by - on

ftworthsailor
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Response Posted - 03/06/2013 : 18:45:27

continue to open and clean the gap, three or four coats of Kitty Hair fiberglass/filler with sanding between coats. thinking of completely stripping the keel and covering with rust inhibitor paint...once completed will repaint with anti-foul paint.

What I am not sure about is loosening and retightening the keel bolts. My plan is to soak the bolts in "bolt blaster", loosen and retighten with torque wrench to specs -in hopes that the studs are not rusted and fragile and then break off due to tightening the nuts.

We are also discussing filling the cavity(if there is one) between keel and boat, where the keel bolts are with resin - to seal the bolts and prevent further water contact with the bolts.... sounds reasonable.....???

YIKES ! ! !

Edited by - ftworthsailor on 03/06/2013 19:01:11

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/06/2013 : 21:13:10

One more time... How's the wood core in the keel stub?

Edited by - on

ftworthsailor
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Response Posted - 03/07/2013 : 04:58:34

I was told by the guys doing the work that it looks dry and solid.......

Edited by - ftworthsailor on 03/07/2013 05:05:48

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/07/2013 : 09:05:12

Good! Now how about flex? If that smile (scowl) was caused by side-to-side flexing (wobbling), a solid sealer alone (like Marine Tex or other epoxy-based material) probably won't last long. If you can unfreeze the nuts and tighten them, that would probably help. If not, sistering in some stainless studs and nuts would be the best solution, but it's a major project (drilling and tapping deep into the cast iron). Catalina Direct sells the stuff for doing it...

One way or the other, something like 3M 5200 might be a better filler--forced into the gap as far as possible, with the boat not sitting on the keel. (I almost never recommend the stuff, but this would be one of the rare applications.) You want a long-lasting seal to protect the bolts and the core.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/07/2013 09:08:14

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/07/2013 : 09:51:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ftworthsailor
 I was told by the guys doing the work that it looks dry and solid.......
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I would ask them how they determined that the plywood core in the keel stub is dry. The only way they could determine that is if they drilled a hole through the fiberglass skin inside the bilge. If they drilled through it and probed inside and found it wet, then the keel stub needs to be rebuilt. If it's dry inside, then all you have to do is plug the hole and repair the smile.

I've never seen a smile nearly that long or wide. It's difficult to imagine that a crack that wide could have opened up at the keel stub without letting a lot of moisture inside. The question is whether you will have to pay them once or twice to repair the problem. If it was me, I'd opt for once.

Edited by - on

ftworthsailor
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Response Posted - 03/09/2013 : 18:25:16

Here are some update pictures after a day of fiberglass work, sanding, fiberglass, sanding, etc...

Edited by - ftworthsailor on 03/09/2013 18:29:23

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/10/2013 : 11:09:54

Hope that works... I'm still concerned that you have a 1900 lb. cast iron lever that might be trying to flex that joint. Time will tell.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 03/10/2013 : 11:18:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Time will tell.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Indeed

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/10/2013 : 12:51:49

Check it again when you haul out next fall. If the crack has re-appeared, that means the keel is moving. If it's moving, that is an indication that either the keel bolts are loose, or, more likely, that the keel stub needs to be re-cored. IMO, keel bolts don't vibrate loose. When they loosen, it is probably because the keel stub has deteriorated beneath them.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 03/10/2013 : 19:18:32

I do wish this forum software allowed thumbs up-thumbs down notation. It would be nice to add support for a post that way.

A lot of good advise on this thread, I hope things work out for FtWorth but I put money on the smile being back this time next year. Was the work done by sailors or power boaters? A power boat marine staff will have no concept of the forces at work on a keel.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/11/2013 : 12:36:38

Another question is whether the repair was made while the boat was resting on the keel, or with the keel hanging--I can't tell from the photos. I'd have suggested the latter.

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ftworthsailor
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Response Posted - 03/13/2013 : 19:20:52

UPDATE: Repairs are done. Now we start sanding the entire keel looking for rust issues. Then we seal the metal, repaint the entire bottom with good bottom paint, and then start working on the deck. Here are the latest pictures.

Edited by - ftworthsailor on 03/13/2013 19:23:01

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/13/2013 : 22:18:05

I applaud your thoroughness, but "rust issues" on an unencapsulated cast iron keel are barely an issue. Sorry to say, Catalina designed that keel to rust. Later ('82?), they change the design to enxapsulated lead... But you will not lose enough of the 1900 lbs. of iron in your lifetime to see one degree of difference in heel, and nobody will see your keel as long as the boat is in the water. Pits are an issue if you want to do some serious racing--otherwise, it is what it is.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/14/2013 : 05:48:27

My cast iron keel formed bubbles under the filler material every year. The bubbles varied from about 3" to 6" across. After struggling with it for almost 20 years, I believe I finally figured out the cause and cure. I installed a sacrificial anode on the keel. I believe gas was being emitted under the filler, forming the bubbles, and the anode stopped the process. So, I suggest that, after you resurface the keel, you paint it with barrier paint and attach a sacrificial anode. (zinc in salt water or magnesium in fresh water) That eliminated most (not all) of what I had previously attributed to rust. It reduced it from a big annual repair job to a minor touch-up. Too bad it took me 20 years to figure it out!

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