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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/16/2013 : 19:32:42

I have a bunch of aerial and hand-held flares that are reaching their expiration dates, and some more that are well beyond their dates... I just became aware of a potential electronic alternative that makes some sense to me: the [url="http://www.greatlandlaser.com/rescue-laser-light.html"]Greatland Laser Rescue Light[/url]. West Marine's "West Advisor" makes some rather vague statements about it satisfying USCG requirements for day and night distress signals. If so, one light would apparently replace some number of flares, would provide much longer service in an emergency, would last longer (like forever) when not used, and could be reused indefinitely.

What I might like even more is that it doesn't require the knowledge, time, and effort to activate in an emergency. In the age of handheld and DSC VHF radios, it would seem aerial flares in particular are becoming anachronisms as a way of signalling trouble. And for locating, this electronic light should be easier to use and handle than hand-held flares.

I've e-mailed Greatland for their response on USCG approvals, and will try the USCG as well (but won't expect much). At [url="http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|135|320544|151233&id=2093609"]$90 from Defender[/url] (less their 10% warehouse sale discount), it looks pretty good compared to replacing expired flares every few years.

Whaddaya think?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage before going over to the Dark Side (2007-2025); now boatless for the first time since 1970 (on a Sunfish).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/16/2013 19:45:19

britinusa
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Response Posted - 03/16/2013 : 19:55:56

Read about them a while ago, but figured I would wait till they got more reviews, looks like they have.

Paul

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2013 : 20:53:27

Ya, reviews are good... But I still don't know the USCG position on required devices. I have inquiries in to them and Greatland.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 03/16/2013 : 21:52:24

I wonder if it's worth it to get the green laser (at twice the price roughly) instead of the red. I've watched a couple of videos which only sort of demonstrated it's capabilities, and at least to a camera lens, there didn't seem to be much difference.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 03/16/2013 : 23:23:40

I know nothing about this specific product, so I should not comment. But hey, it's the Internet, so I won't let that stop me.

Doesn't use of a laser pose a severe risk to anyone who "sees" the beam of light? I'm sure you've heard about the problems that airplane pilots are having. Blinding a boat pilot is just as dangerous.

Even if the laser is rastered over a large area, all it takes is a split second of exposure to someone's cornea to cause temporary blindness.

OK, I read their website and I'm not convinced. Lasers, by definition, do not produce a "fan of light." Their own website acknowledges that the "fan of light" is invisible and will only be seen when the laser hits them in the eye:
<center>

</center>
I'm sorry, this concept wreaks of "My safety is more important than the safety of the rescuers." I'd like to hear a favorable testimonial from a rescuer who was actually signaled by one of these devices. If you find something, please post a link. Until then, count me as a skeptic, even if there is an exemption in the Federal law.

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/16/2013 23:25:00

britinusa
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Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 05:27:21

I read practically everything on their site, paying attention to the safety issues.

Regarding 'Fan' of light, that is the same concept that is used by the Laser Level that I have in the Garage. That produces a line that is approx 1/8" high on the entire length of a wall.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Are they safe to look at?

Yes. Our lasers are classified by the The United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as a Class IIIA(Class IIIR) Laser Product. Just like any other light, however, it isn't advisable to point it directly in the eye at short range for an extended period of time. Please refer to the FDA's Consumer Health information publication http://www.fda.gov/downloads/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/UCM167564.pdf explaining the different types of laser devices and laser safety. Rescue Laser can safely be used to signal an aircraft for help when you are in distress. Unlike higher powered lasers that may be dangerous if pointed at an aircraft, Rescue Lasers will not cause eye injury nor flash blindness when used to signal a pilot in an aircraft. Rescue Lasers have been on the market since 2001 and have never caused an injury!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I also read the fda.gov pdf (link in the quote) and still see an issue. They state that the area of coverage at 1.5 miles is 1000 times less than a [typical] laser pointer. But what when a rescue aircraft or cutter is much closer.

It would seem that they are good (and safe) for hailing at at a distance of a mile or more, but up close in black of night wavy waters, I would have more confidence in a close up device such as a strobe.

Does a [url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=108646&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50469&subdeptNum=50494&classNum=50501#.UUW2DxyThIE"]Strobe light

Edited by - britinusa on 03/17/2013 05:29:09

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 07:50:51

West Advisor says this: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">All vessels used on coastal waters or the Great Lakes on any body of water with a passageway to the sea at least two miles wide are required to carry Coast Guard Approved visual distress signals. These can be either pyrotechnic devices (flares) or non-pyrotechnic devices (distress flags or signal lights like the Greatland Rescue Laser Flare). If you use pyrotechnics, that means you’ll need at least three daytime signals and three that are approved for night use for a total of six, or three that are approved for both day and night signaling. If you use non-pyrotechnic signals, you only need one approved for daytime and one night signal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's what got my attention in the beginning. Looking further, I haven't found anything saying specifically that the Greatland Laser is USCG approved for day or night.

I took the "fan" (or cone) shape of beam to mean it would not be dangerous in intensity as a laser pointer at the same distance--just more directionally focused with longer range than a flashlight. I was guessing they used a lens to "fan" the beam more than the pointer.

One advantage to flares are that the sight of them (as opposed to a red flashing light) is probably a more recognizable signal of distress--especially if they're arcing up in the air and floating downward. But I'd rather be spending my effort on the VHF, including my hand-held backup, than messing around with flares. If I can get attention on the radio and then signal my location with a light, that seems simpler. (How many of us have even tried using our flares?) However, if I'm going to blind my rescuers, that won't help.

BTW, strobes are good for locating, especially if you're in the water, but they don't count as day or night signals for the USCG. I have one tied to my inflatable PFD.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/17/2013 08:02:28

britinusa
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Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 08:07:28

And USCG:[url="http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5214/docs/vds_table.pdf"] visual Distress signals [/url]

Paul

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 08:10:16

Now it's getting interesting [url="http://www.uscg.mil/acquisition/rdc/projectspotlight0412.asp"] USCG Spotlight [/url]

Paul

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 08:11:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 I wonder if it's worth it to get the green laser (at twice the price roughly) instead of the red...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The FDA article Paul posted says green is more problematic regarding temporary blindness.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 08:19:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Now it's getting interesting [url="http://www.uscg.mil/acquisition/rdc/projectspotlight0412.asp"] USCG Spotlight [/url]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good for them! The USCG Academy here in New London may have been participating in that testing--I recall them broadcasting on Ch. 16 that signals in a certain area were part of some tests. (Best not to have your boat sink in that area.

)

So I wonder when the conclusions will appear?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 08:53:50

The eye is most sensitive to green light and red is absorbed most rapidly by water, even as vapor, so the USCG testing should be helpful in finding the best risk/visibility balance. I would really like to carry a non-pyro device, but am not yet ready to put all my faith in an electronic device in a marine environment.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 09:25:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 ...am not yet ready to put all my faith in an electronic device in a marine environment.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think that issue is behind us--lights work on buoys that are certainly in more of a marine environment than anything we carry... and I have electric "ice eaters" on my dock, with motors that are in salt water all winter--what burns them out are plastic bags and water bottles getting caught in the propellers. I have less faith in 3-year-old flares, which I know chemically degrade--some have split open.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 13:23:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 The eye is most sensitive to green light and red is absorbed most rapidly by water, even as vapor, so the USCG testing should be helpful in finding the best risk/visibility balance. I would really like to carry a non-pyro device, but am not yet ready to put all my faith in an electronic device in a marine environment.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's exactly what I was thinking, green isn't absorbed by atmospherics quickly as red would be, plus the greater sensitivity of our eyes to light in that part of the spectrum.

I'll be interested to see what the USCG has to say, and like Rick, I'd like to hear about the use of one of these from a rescuer's point of view.

Edited by - on

glivs
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Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 17:00:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> If you use non-pyrotechnic signals, you only need one approved for daytime and one night signal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As long as no one drops it overboard....

As for retinal damage, there are strict rules on laser power. That's why you see the HeNe (red) lasers in classrooms, pet stores, ..., yet in lab settings there are very strict safety regulations. Curious to see what the Greatland lasers are advertised at, but the fact that user required training is not mentioned may tell the story.

As for impact on rescuers, I would like to hear their side of the story. An older gentlemen from the local Power Squadron told me a few years ago that first responders have very mixed feelings regarding strobes. Yes they are easy to detect from a distance, but on site they can be very disorienting. Could prove similar for (misused) laser pointers.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 18:33:22

An excerpt from a reply to me from Greatland: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Rescue Lasers do not yet meet the USCG requirements to replace pyrotechnic flares – yet. Meanwhile, we have many customers (including USCG personnel) who have elected to carry our products in their survival gear in addition to pyrotechnic flares so they’ll have something to signal when after that one or two minute pyrotechnic flare expires! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm still waiting for a USCG reply, but we now have a pretty good idea of what it will be. The West Advisor is wrong.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 20:20:52

I've been considering this as an inexpensive strobe:

<center>[url="http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|135|320544|9312&id=9357"]

[/url]</center>

Does anyone here have any experience with it?

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/17/2013 20:21:10

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 03/18/2013 : 18:27:02

EDIT: the light is USCG, the strobe is USCG/SOLAS

I started there, but I ended up with 2 of these manual/water activated USCG/SOLAS approved devices at about the same price each:

http://content.westmarine.com/images/catalog/large/10913119.jpg

I got the LED light with 16 hr. battery life instead of the strobe version. Strobes are probably better for initial discovery and lights for precise location. Having both function might be good.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 03/18/2013 18:37:46

delliottg
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Response Posted - 03/18/2013 : 19:20:43

Rita & I both have one of those strobes tucked into our inflatable vests, along with an older model flashlight / strobe combo, and one of the big whistles.

We've never had reason to use them, so I test them at the beginning of the season, replace the batteries, and hope we never do.

Edited by - delliottg on 03/18/2013 19:24:27

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/18/2013 : 22:15:46

Just be aware that a strobe does not meet USCG requirements as a day or night distress signal. The only electric device that does (for night only) is a light that automatically flashes SOS in morse code (... --- ...), which a standard strobe can't do. And that light must meet certain visibility and duration standards that I couldn't find, but that are published to the manufacturers who self-certify their products. So having a strobe will not absolve you of having approved day and night signals on coastal or Great Lakes waters--it's just (arguably) a good thing to have.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/18/2013 22:16:05

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/19/2013 : 04:33:01

Reminds me of when they tried to (did) change the dive flag.. We flew a red one to keep boats away, then they said to fly a blue one and boats would drive up to us and ask what the flag was for.

Now many fly 2 flags..

The Cost Guard should make a decision and publish the findings.

For God so loved the world that he did not send a committee...

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 03/19/2013 : 04:53:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Just be aware that a strobe does not meet USCG requirements as a day or night distress signal...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...yet the websites list them as USCG approved (with alkaline batteries) and USCG/SOLAS approved (with lithium batteries).

So if they're not approved as a day/night distress signal, what ARE they approved for? Waterproof battery storage?

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/19/2013 04:54:03

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/19/2013 : 08:17:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 ...So if they're not approved as a day/night distress signal, what ARE they approved for? Waterproof battery storage?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">They're approved by their manufacturers as meeting USCG specs for Personal Marker Lights (PMLs) that are required on PFDs and immersion suits on certain vessels (not including ours). They are not approved by the USCG as distress signals unless they can automatically flash SOS, and then they're approved for night use only--you need something else as a daylight signal.

The more I think about this, the less I care about these signals. If I'm taking on water out in the Atlantic, I'll be on the radio and ready to shine a light toward a responding vessel--I probably won't be messing around with flares. I just need the flares for the times I get boarded, which with the USCG Academy around the corner, is about an annual event. (After that, I can wave my copy of the boarding report and they'll leave me alone.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/19/2013 08:28:25

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/19/2013 : 10:02:52

<< The more I think about this, the less I care about these signals. >>

My thoughts exactly. I want to think about how many ways I might be able to contact someone quickly... and this now appears to be mostly digital..

Cell Phone, Radio, epbrs, ...

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/19/2013 : 10:51:37

VHF is still, IMHO, the primary tool. It not only reaches the USCG immediately (from anywhere I'm traveling), it simultaneously alerts all vessels in the area if they're tuned to 16, which USCG regs require them to be. Besides the DSC unit above my helm, I have a hand-held (with alkaline batteries--not rechargeables) in my floating ditch bag. Everything else is secondary.

"See you on the radio!"

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 03/19/2013 : 15:15:16

I think this thread is bringing some important issues to light (NPI)

If you were out of cell phone range during the day, what steps would you take to request help.
Assuming that your boat had power, then VHF could be used (line of sight)
If no boat power, then handheld VHF (ditto)

If during the day, next action might be to fire off flares just in case anyone were within sight.
If during the night, ditto.

And if you have fired off all your flares (day or night) then???

Seems to me that if the need for assistance stretches into the night, then the longer lasting the signal (flashlight, stobe, glow in the dark strip) the better.

So for me, it's not so much the USCG requirements that matters, as the need to be able to summon help when needed.

Paul

Edited by - on

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