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Kper
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USA
417 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/22/2013 : 15:59:31

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has helped answer all the basic questions I had the last couple weeks.

We have taken some time to look at a few Catalinas and I am surrendering to my wife's original suggestion which has been the same since we started to investigate boat ownership - purchase a C-30.

I was stuck in the "must be trailerable" mode because I wanted to have it at home and possibly take it to the other lake nearby. After endless hours of research (until I had a headache) we discovered it would cost us half as much to put a 30 on a ball, have it taken out, put in and stored for the winter in Lake Michigan as it would just for a slip in our lake for the summer. We also started thinking that sailing 5 miles one way, turning around and sailing back weekend after weekend might get somewhat... predictable. We have only sailed on Lake Michigan and thoroughly enjoy taking in different destinations and stopping overnight in different areas. Sure, we wouldn't get to use our boat every weekend but when we did use it we'd get the enjoyment out of it like we do in our friends boat now.

Thanks, again, to everyone for being there when we asked the goofy questions.

Now, to find a good C-30 forum... seems harder than finding a good C-25 forum and I must say the folks here are fantastic! We wish we could take you all with us.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2013 : 17:45:47

The 30 is a great boat. Fair winds.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2013 : 17:53:14

Thanks Frank.
I know I wasn't here long and people come and go but this is a great forum. Nothing like I've ever been a part off even if it was only a few weeks. Just grateful I guess.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2013 : 18:19:02

Well, you could always try sailnet... and nothing says you can't mingle here too! Glad we could help in some small way.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 05:49:56

We have many members that have move up or down, Even one that went to the "Dark Side" but keep hanging around. A C30 is still a sailboat and that's what this forum is really about so don't be a stranger. When you find your perfect boat shoot us some photos, We love photos! Good luck!

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 06:54:27

Oh, and you could always join the association anyway (it's cheap)... and use the sailing forum to post your new boat picts... hehehe.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 07:39:12

I'm still here even though I sold my C-25 7 months ago. I still sail it a lot though. When I sold it I was looking at 28-32 boats, about the same size range that you are considering. My Pearson 28-2 is about the same size as most 30' boats (it is 1' shorter at 28.5' vs 29.5', but similar in beam and features).

I suggest looking at the C-30, but also looking beyond it. The C-30 is a nice design for packing as much living space into a 30' boat as possible (that is not a bad thing). There are many models which will sail better than a C-30, and expanding your scope may also find you a better deal on a similar sized boat. Other common boats that I'd suggest looking out for are Islander 28 and Islander 30, C&C 30 and C&C 29, Pearson 28, 28-2, 30, and 32, S2 9.1 and 9.2, Tartan 30, Yankee 30, and anything else that you find really.

One downside (and upside) of moving up in boat size is that you'll now be looking only at inboard powered boats. Inboards are extremely expensive to replace, for most 30' boats the replacement cost of the motor is roughly similar to the value of the entire boat. For instance a 2 cylinder diesel is about $10-$12k installed, $6k just for the motor without related parts. In comparison an outboard that is suitable for a Catalina 25 is $2000 to $2500 brand new, and takes less than an hour to install. This makes motor condition one of the primary things to look for.

A very common motor that you will find is the Atomic 4. It was used in many of the 70s boats, including the Catalina 30. This is a gasoline powered inboard (almost all others are diesel). They can be reliable and easy to service, but most of them are at least 40 years old now and may not be in great condition. Gasoline is a less safe fuel for an inboard than diesel, and gets worse fuel economy, but if you are careful and use the blower it isn't a major concern. I'd say do a lot of research to see if you want an A4 before buying a boat with one.

Raw water cooled engines are an issue if the boat has been in salt water. That seems unlikely to be an issue for where you are located.

A very common and reliable engine for a boat this size is a 2 cylinder Yanmar. I have one in my Pearson and it's great.

In the Seattle area a good condition Catalina 25 (with newish sails, good motor, clean interior and exterior with good cushions) goes for about $6-$10k. A 30-40 year old 30' boat in similar condition goes for $15-$20k. The systems also get more complex, not only the inboard. My Catalina had an outboard, a very simple DC system, hand pump water, and a head. That's not much to inspect. In comparison my Pearson added the inboard, pressurized water, a diesel heater, a hot water heater, about 2x as many DC circuits and an AC system. That made it worth getting a survey on.

I love having moved up, but I'm also glad to have gotten a lot of sailing experience on my C-25.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 08:03:20

There's a "right" boat for every situation, and to me the C-30 is more right for Lake Michigan than the C-25. (I grew up nearby.) If you were more interested in single-handing, the C-25 would certainly do there, and everything on it is a lot more manageable for one person... but for a couple cruising, the C-30 is a very nice living space (that most people can stand up straight in). Be sure to get a professional survey that includes checking the engine, cooling, and fuel systems. (And I'll take this opportunity to recommend a diesel, although older models with gas Atomic 4s will be less expensive.

And yes, this is a special community! Like a few others here, I sold my C-25 several (6?) years ago, and unlike the others, I went over to the Dark Side--but the wind is still in my heart, and I still find ways to sail. But there are lots of C-30s and their owners out there--I'm betting the dominate the [url="http://catfleet21.org/"]Chicago area All Catalina fleet[/url], which is probably a great thing to hook up with.

Good luck in your quest, and show us the results!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/23/2013 08:03:55

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 08:16:06

Hah! Alex posted while I was writing (or eating, or something)--and said much the same, but better...

I'll add that the C-30 comes with one advantage over most other brands--that's [url="http://catalinadirect.com/"]Catalina Direct[/url], a third-party supplier of replacements and upgrades for older 22-36' Catalinas. They really know our boats, and are truly a unique resource. Much of their stuff is generic, but some of it is custom-made and you won't find it anywhere else. (I have no connection... just good experiences.)

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 08:19:49

The early C-30 diesels are woefully underpowered. Catalina went to an 11 or 12 HP diesel after the Atomic 4 and later upped it to to16. The over 20 later models are much better. The MK III's are the sweetest of the lot and priced accordingly.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 09:15:54

What a great place. I do want to stick around and still have many questions, many opinionated, that I can't get answered online. If all goes well we are looking to travel to Chicago and Racine next weekend to look at a handful of boats - not all Catalinas - and we have 1 or 2 C-25's on the list as well. Since you all have been so welcoming towards our move to a larger model I have a few questions.

1) Porta potty vs holding tank - pros and cons for both?
I know this boat is older and the price is higher than some C-30's 10 years newer. It just looked unmolested to me but had a porta-potty. Would this, in itself, be considered a pro or con? Opinions on the boat?
http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1977-Catalina-Standard-Rig-101881167

2) What does everyone think about air conditioning? I saw a listing for one with "built-in Air Conditioning by Marine Air". Where is the condensor & evap located and how are they usually vented? Are they worth it?

3) Two other boats we may be looking at:
A) A 1976 Ericson 35 MK II - Was told it had a few soft spots in the deck that they are repairing and the price will be around 21k. After some research I discovered they may be prone to that. That didn't excite me much.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?& units=Feet& id=2499903& lang=en& slim=broker& & hosturl=racineriverside& & ywo=racineriverside&

B) A 1979 Irwin Citation 30 - $12.3k - Did some research and owners say the leather-like headliners are really nice until they discovered leaks in just about every spot the deck had something mounted to it, even around ALL the windows. Owners say to keep stocked with caulk. The headliner hid the leaks until the plywood incorporated into the deck was rotting. Otherwise my wife really wants to look at this one.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?& units=Feet& id=2516457& lang=en& slim=broker& & hosturl=racineriverside& & ywo=racineriverside&

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 09:36:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kper

2) What does everyone think about air conditioning? I saw a listing for one with "built-in Air Conditioning by Marine Air". Where is the condensor & evap located and how are they usually vented? Are they worth it?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

[url="https://www.catalina-capri-25s.net/cgi-local/MBR_gallery.cgi?Album+1000+76"]Here's how[/url] I installed AC on our C250WB, if it can be done on a boat our size, then a 30' should be a breeze (pun intended

)

Paul

Edited by - on

pastmember
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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 09:58:10

I would not look a a boat from the 70's. I think that it was mid 80's when everyone seemed to figure out hulls so blistering was not a big deal anymore, and it seems the mid 80's were also when the designers started thinking "new". Transom designs changed, rigs changed, hull shapes changed, etc. Boats from the 60's and 70's were often built as rule beaters and have pinched sterns with a huge loss of volume inside, and short booms with near pointless mains. A modern rig has a large main and a small headsail, it is great to raise a main alone and have the boat sail well. Catalinas are mast head rigs which means the main is wimpy. Catalina owners sail on headsail alone when wanting to sail on a single sail and it is a real compromise on performance. Sailing a boat under main alone like a big Laser is a much better thing. There is far more to consider in an old boat than whether the deck is known for soft spots, study up on the rig and find old reviews on these boats to get a better sense of whether you will be happy with one.
As an example, we have a Cal 9.2 at our club you could probably buy for 10 K on a trailer, but no one wants that design, it was the worst of an entire genre.

Edited by - pastmember on 03/23/2013 10:01:33

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 10:35:23

The newer diesel adds a lot, but that is a lot of money for a 77. The MK II they have in Muskegon might be worth looking at. The engine has 1500 hours, but the MK II is a much nicer boat. The "T" cockpit alone is almost wort the difference. The pressure water system was in the stern locker and the A/C system with the throughhull heat exchanger was in the port locker on the C-30's I looked at. The bulkheads between the liner and hull were precut from the factory on a MK II for cold air lines according to an article I read on an owner installed system. Emptying a portapottie vs occ. pump outs is a personal call, but my preference is an electric head in a comfortable boat like this. The Hutchins 27 is also well worth looking at. You would be amazed at the difference that comes from the modest extra length and increased beam of that boat

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 10:36:09

On Lake Michigan, I suspect you'll be wanting a heater more than A/C--the evening breezes can be brisk, especially if you sail up the MI shore.

A "marine head" with holding tank is nice if you have access to pump-out facilities--I don't expect that to be a problem around Chicago. If that's uncertain, a portable is less objectionable to deal with than many people assume--just make sure it's a 5+ gallon model, which should do for two people over two nights. And use a head deoderizer. The IL-WI half of L. Michigan is not a no-discharge zone (surprisingly), so I suppose you can dump the portable in an emergency. Not true on the MI side.

I've been known to participate in the "main alone vs. headsail alone" debate... (Frank started it!

) It varies by rig, by skipper, and by passengers. If the headsail is a fairly large (130%+), overlapping genoa on a mast-head rig (forestay to the top), the genny alone can give nice (if not maximum) performance. With a roller furler, it adds the benefit of easier deployment and dousing of the sail--no flaking, folding, covering, climbing around, etc. And in heavy, gusty conditions, the genny alone on our C-25 provided more drive with much less heel than the main alone. BTW, on a 30+' boat, I consider the roller furler to be essential, but I'm not a hard-core racer. (Even then, Americas Cup boats use them...)

A fractional rig (forestay to about 7/8 down from the top of the mast), the mast is further forward, the main is bigger, and the headsail alone is not likely to work as well. But this discussion is probably premature. What you need is a "well-found vessel."

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/23/2013 10:39:38

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 10:43:49

I avoid soft headliners. The zippers are usually frozen and that makes it very hard to inspect deck fittings. It's a big headache to rip them all out and replace them with a new hard headliner.

I don't think you can pick a year when blisters are no longer a problem. My 1986 Pearson only had one (on the rudder) on the last haulout. My 1984 C-25 had 1 quarter sized one and about a dozen dime sized ones. Some 70s boats have no blister issues, some mid 80s ones have lots of them.

I agree with Frank on avoiding IOR boats. They look like this in profile:
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1277

Pinched stern, big beam, tall skinny main sail and carrying many sizes of huge jibs. They have compromises in sailing and won't be as good as a more modern design. The jib selection makes roller furling not ideal on them. Catalina 30s aren't IOR.

My Pearson 28-2 is a more modern design, though still with a masthead rig. It is actually not too different from a blown up Catalina 25 in sail rig:
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1102

C&C 30 is another older boat with a pretty good (not IOR) design. The Islander 28/30 is very similar. Not all 70s boats are bad:
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1288
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1017
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5389

If sailing performance were a top priority, you were on the west coast, and the budget was $15-20k I'd be looking for a Yankee 30. They sail great, were only made in the 70s, and are very solid. They are heavy (10k pounds, most 30' boats are 7-8k) but have a large rig. The rig is a bit IOR, but the hull shape is not:
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1229

Check on moorage/slip prices before you buy too large of a boat. The difference between owning a 29' boat and a 30' boat in Seattle is approximately $100/month (this is due to slip sizes jumping from 30 to 34). This weighed heavily into my decision to get the Pearson 28-2 (29') instead of an Islander 30.

alex

Edited by - awetmore on 03/23/2013 10:46:44

islander
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Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 11:04:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Check on moorage/slip prices before you buy too large of a boat<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A very good point. One foot could cost you. I'm charged for 28ft (LOA) or the length of the finger (28ft) which ever is longer. If I was 1ft longer I would have to move to a longer finger (36ft) and would be charged for that. A very good suggestion is to look into where you are going to keep the boat and what their contracts call for.

Edited by - islander on 03/23/2013 11:17:35

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 12:14:23

IOR?! Arrrg... more internet searching before I can even get to the countless questions you all raised in my head.

The MKI is outta the question since I'm a simple federal employee who's getting furloughed this summer. I think we'd be lucky to get into the MKII class. We've expanded out searches past Catalina but it seems a lot like buying a car - some are praised and some are hated. I just don't know which ones to commit my time to.

I'm beginning to feel like I need the kindergarden section of this forum. Obviously simple sailing with a friend isn't enough. I've been eyeballing a sailing course this summer.

Keep 'er coming... I'm slowly taking it all in.

Wait... wheel or tiller? All I've ever sailed has had a wheel. Seems a lot easier just thinking about it. I enjoy standing, too.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 14:27:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm beginning to feel like I need the kindergarden section of this forum. Obviously simple sailing with a friend isn't enough.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Starting to feel overwelmed? Or what am I getting into?
This would be our Kindergarden class.

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awetmore
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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 20:45:25

Have you looked into sailing clubs and boat rental? After owning boats I'm actually pretty well convinced that if you are sailing much less often than once a week that it is cheaper to charter boats from a club than to own them. That will also get you classes and give you exposure to many different boats. My sailing instructor recommended this for me when I first got into sailing, and I ignored him, but I think he's right.

If you do continue down the path of purchasing then I think a 22-25'/outboard/tiller boat is a great place to start because it's hard to go too crazy spending money on them and you can usually sell them for close to your investment or a small loss. Once you get into 30' and larger boats they are getting expensive enough that it's good to have sailing experience and understand what you'll like or dislike about different boat designs and what you can easily handle. The C-25 is a great intro beginner boat because it's sporty enough, cruisery enough, and forgiving enough to learn a lot on and figure out what you want in your second boat. Jumping straight to the "second boat" stage would have been really hard for me, and easily could have ended up with a bad purchase.

A forget that a 30' boat is more than twice the weight, cost to maintain, and expense of a 25' boat.

Finally, you usually sit in the same place in the cockpit on a wheel or a tiller boat when sailing (typically on the windward bench). The tiller gives you much better feel of the water over the rudder (which I think is really useful for learning how to sail), but on a larger/heavier boat the tiller gets long which takes up a lot of cockpit space. That is why most boats over 30' have wheels.

Edited by - on

ftworthsailor
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USA
279 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2013 : 15:12:22

Quote: "2) What does everyone think about air conditioning? I saw a listing for one with "built-in Air Conditioning by Marine Air". Where is the condensor & evap located and how are they usually vented? Are they worth it?"

Answer: In Texas, having the luxury of an air conditioner on your boat seems almost impractical, however on those really hot days or nights, they sure could make the difference. I have seen some very small window air conditioners installed in the gangway with modified hatch/gangway boards, I have also seen a motorhome room mounted system installed but that would require a boat without a pop-top and some reinforcements for the heavy unit, and then I saw what the PO did to mine. This one is installed under the cockpit. To vent it properly you have to open the port side seat locker and possibly add an exhaust fan of some sort. Here is what it looks like inside the boat viewing from the starboard rear bunk area.

The PO claims that this A/C works really, really well. I have not had a chance to use it yet, however it looks like it should do a great job while Im plugged in at the docks.

Edited by - ftworthsailor on 03/24/2013 15:17:48

pastmember
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Response Posted - 03/25/2013 : 19:29:35

That AC install warms my heart.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 03/25/2013 : 19:52:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 That AC install warms my heart.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Is that your old boat?

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 19:59:40

No but my design, I put it in The Catalina Mainsheet and we talked about here quite a bit. I suppose it could be a coincidence but I am insecure so I will take credit for it.

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ftworthsailor
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Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 19:37:14

Frank, All I can say is a big Thanks to you and/or anyone else that came up with this idea and If you were indeed instrumental in getting this A/C installed in my boat. THere are six Catalina 25's at my marina and I am the ONLY one that has A/C. I plugged it in today and found that it works like a charm. I am looking forward to spending some VERY comfortable HOT TEXAS NIGHTS aboard this boat. I am, however going to have to pull it out and redo the wood bulkhead with marine plywood. THe PO used some sort of pressboard, laminated with vinyl. I see it starting to deteriorate and its shedding bits of wood. I am also going to install an exhaust blower to make sure that the heat side of the A/C is vented adequately. I will post pictures as I begin to rebuild it.

Edited by - ftworthsailor on 03/27/2013 19:40:39

Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 03/28/2013 : 13:01:14

You should be able to swing a newer Mark I which should IMHO have an M25 engine, at least, not one of the smaller raw water cooled engines. The M25 is freshwater cooled (not lake water, but recirculated antifreeze, like your car, but with a heat exchanger instead of a radiator).

IIRC, there may not be a C30 forum around (Google), but www.sailboatowners.com is very active. Our C34 website has a ton of information on M25 engines, which is available to anyone.

Happy hunting.

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