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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Which boat?

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BritOnABeemer
Deckhand

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Canada
7 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/27/2013 : 13:04:17

Hi all,

This is my first post, and was hoping to have a question answered. I am in Calgary, Canada, and I am looking to purchase my first sailboat for use on the local lakes near me (I am nowhere near the ocean unfortunately). I've been on basic sailing courses but otherwise I'm a newbie.

Advertised locally are two Catalina's: one is a c250 built 1996, and the other is a c25 build in 1981. Both have swing keels, and appear to be in good shape, with the owners stating they have maintained the boat and sails etc., and both are approximately the same price.

My question is, taking into account things like the average cost of maintenance, internal layout, age difference, availability of spare parts, handling, trailering/towing characteristics et al, which would be the better boat for me?

I realise that all answers are subjective and I am not looking to start a war between the owners of the two models(!), but if you were me, which one of these two boats would you choose?

If I've forgotten to include some vital information please ask me, but the adverts I am looking at contain fairly minimal information. This topic may have been asked before (I didn't spend long searching the forum), but people's opinions change all the time so I hope you won't mind if this is a 're-post'.

Cheers,

Paul.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 13:43:13

They are not both swing keels if you stipulate to the definition of a swing keel being one which provides primary ballast. The 250 is a waterballast boat and the C25 uses the swing keel for ballast. People usually feel strongly about the "value" of each design. The 250 will be better off in lighter airs, if you sail in a high wind venue then the C25 is probably a better boat for you. Make sure the boat you buy works where you live.

Edited by - on

BritOnABeemer
Deckhand

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Canada
7 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 14:01:41

Frank - okay I understand, I saw from photos of them on their trailers there was no fixed keel, so assumed they were both swings... I wasn't aware of the difference.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 15:02:07

You came to the right place. Welcome. I wouldn't ever say which is better but, I will say that the difference in age is significant. I bought my 250 primarily because it was a newer boat and would, presumably, have fewer age related repair issues.

Probably the biggest, no pun intended, is the keel. The C25 swing keel is 1500 pounds of cast iron. If the mechanism that holds it up (i.e. retracted) should fail, the keel could swing down with sufficient force to do serious damage to the hull of the boat. That's not a problem if the cable, turning ball, etc., have been well maintained but it is serious maintenance issue of which a buyer of a swing keel boat should be aware.

Another maintenance issue will be regarding the sails. If the sails on the C25 are original, that means they're more than 30 years old. While the others are also probably reaching the end of their life expectancy, It's a higher probability that you'll need new sails on the older boat. ~$1500 US.

Another significant difference is one of style. The C25 is much more traditional in its appearance. The C250 has, what some have called, a more European look, whatever that is. My boat has a much more open layout belowdecks than the C25. It's essentially one big space with a closed off head. The C25 has bulkheads which divide the space more traditionally.

Good luck with your search. Don't hesitate to ask as many questions as you need answers. Either the C25 or the C250 are excellent first boats.

Edited by - John Russell on 03/27/2013 15:10:56

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 15:23:31

Welcome, Paul!

Frank's right (no surprise there)... The C-250 water ballasted model has what's called a centerboard, which functions like a swing keel but doesn't provide appreciable ballast. Because its primary ballast is water, the "C-250 WB" can be left in the lake when the boat is put on a trailer, reducing trailer weight by about 1200 lbs. The boat should never be sailed without a full ballast tank, and never, never, ever with a partially-full tank (which would allow the ballast to go to the low side).

Do you expect to move this boat around on a trailer very much? If so, for the reason above, the C-250 is substantially easier to launch, retrieve, and tow. The C-25's swing keel is 1500 lbs. of cast iron.

That hunk of movable iron also necessitates periodic maintenance (replacement) of the cable that holds it up, and occasionally the winch, pivot pin, and "turning ball" for the cable. If the cable fails with the keel up (and the boat in the water), a free-fall will likely crack the hull (the keel trunk) and sink the boat.

If those two boats are about the same price, I'd say the C-250 is priced low or the C-25 is high. Take a look at yachtworld.com and sailingtexas.com for similar vintages of both boats. The C-25 was built from 1977 to 1991, and newer ones like '89-91 can sell for significantly more than older ones. Models include swing keel, fin (fixed) keel, and wing keel, with two mast heights--standard and tall. The C-250 started production in 1995 and continues today. It also comes with a wing keel, which has fixed ballast, more interior headroom, and is not quite as trailerable.

Keep up the research--you can use the Search function above, and ask any questions here. Look at as many boats as you can before picking one--each one will teach you something about the market. Then talk to us about getting a professional survey before you make an offer...

Good luck in your quest!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/27/2013 15:28:45

BritOnABeemer
Deckhand

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Canada
7 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 15:28:43

Thanks for the detailed reply John, I appreciate it - I'm new at this but I learn quickly! I believe the sails on the c25 have been replaced, not sure about those on the c250 but it is now on my list of 'things to ask about'. I agree a newer boat should have less age related repair issues, and I am erring towards the c250 because of this. As I am European (originally from England), I guess I won't have any issues with the styling either!

Cheers, Paul.

Edited by - on

BritOnABeemer
Deckhand

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Canada
7 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 15:43:59

Hi Dave, thanks for your reply.

I will need to launch and recover the boat every time it is used, although the storage yard is literally across the road from the launching ramp. A good reason for me to choose the c250, if it is water ballasted. When I get more comfortable with the boat I will try trailering to larger lakes in British Columbia, as long as the trailer brakes are legal and working okay.

The 1996 c250 is listed at $14,900 Canadian, not sure whether that's high or low to be honest. I know what you mean about looking at lots of boats before choosing, in fact I would love to look at dozens of boats but, being considerably inland in Calgary there doesn't appear to be many on the market!

I'm not in any rush though, as all our lakes are still frozen! You are very lucky if you can sail (or motorcycle - my other passion) all year round.

Cheers, Paul.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3478 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 16:30:12

Paul,

Welcome to this forum. While it has been pointed out the maintenance issues with the swing keel, there is also an issue with the water ballast. While I have never had experiences with the water ballast configuration, it would seem to me that if one was to flirt with cold weather while the water ballast was full and temps are prolonged below 32F, it is possible that the stagnant water sitting within the ballast section could freeze and crack the hull. I would think it remote anyone would not drain the water out when on a trailer and I would think that those with a water ballast configuration would also be taking their boat out before a deep freeze occurs, however, when buying a water ballast boat, one issue I would want to assess is to ensure there are no cracks/leaks from the ballast section. Those with that configuration could weigh in on this discussion as to if this a potential issue and how they would go about assessing the integrity of the ballast section prior to making an offer.

Also, these are two boats that you have asked for comments. Catalina also has the wing keel configuration and while that is not what you presently see for sale, perhaps addl searching may come up with one. The wing keel has the benefit that it has no mechanical parts that are subject to age/wear and the wing keel is made of lead and does not rust. It does not have quite the convenience that the water ballast configuration has regarding trailering but I would think it is similar to what is involved trailering the swing keel configuration. I have the wing keel and I leave my boat in the water year-round. We have flow agitators in the water that keeps the water from freezing.

Edited by - on

BritOnABeemer
Deckhand

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Canada
7 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 16:42:06

Hi Larry, thanks for the welcome and your comments. Yes a fixed keel would be the ideal, just not sure whether I could launch and recover such a boat easily at the local lake because of the additional draft needed - would I need an extension bar on the trailer to avoid sinking my truck? If so, I don't know whether the ramp is long enough (I can find out easily enough). There are other fixed keel boats there so I guess they manage. If I end up getting the water ballast version I will certainly check it's integrity - thanks for the suggestion. I would never intentionally leave the water in the ballast, but who knows whether previous owners have ever done so.

Cheers, Paul.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 17:14:35

Hi Paul, I have a'95 C250 WB. #1 You shouldn't pull the boat out with water in the ballast tank. It's easily pumped out before hauling out and gravity feeds filling it. #2 With the center board up you can beach the boat with care. You just can't sail with it raised. I would question the condition of the sails. I still have the original main sail, but it's stored in a warm dry cellar in the non-sailing months. I would question which series rudder is on the boat. Earlier models such as mine had an insufficent rudder allowing the boat to round up. Newer available rudders fixed that issue. We're here to help just ask us.

Edited by - on

BritOnABeemer
Deckhand

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Canada
7 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 18:13:44

Hi bear,

Thanks, yes condition and age of sails is now on my list of questions, as is the rudder age and revision. I have no idea where the present owners keep the sails during our -30 degree winters, hopefully not on the boat. And yes I'll certainly come back to the forum if I have more questions. Great forum by the way...

Cheers, Paul.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 18:43:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BritOnABeemer
 I will need to launch and recover the boat every time it is used . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hmmmm, the C25 is a chunk to retrieve. I think you will grow weary of this process, quickly, even with a C250. I assume you will be drydocking at a marina and leaving the mast up all season?

Edited by - on

BritOnABeemer
Deckhand

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Canada
7 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 18:52:02

Hi OJ,

Sadly I have no choice but to haul out each day, there are only a few mooring buoys on the local lake and these get snapped up early by the regulars (plus they're expensive). However, the storage yard is just over the road and there are no telegraph wires in the way, so the mast can stay up. At least my launch / recovery skills will develop quickly!

Cheers, Paul.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 19:12:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BritOnABeemer
 Hi OJ,

Sadly I have no choice but to haul out each day, there are only a few mooring buoys on the local lake and these get snapped up early by the regulars (plus they're expensive). However, the storage yard is just over the road and there are no telegraph wires in the way, so the mast can stay up. At least my launch / recovery skills will develop quickly!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I understand the desire for a boat with a cabin - even for day sailing. I would steer you towards a C250 for retrieval reasons but a C25 if your area experieces heavy weather. You are correct, the more often you launch/retrieve the more proficient you will become. Good attitude! Good luck and keep us posted!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 19:18:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BritOnABeemer
 Hi OJ,

Sadly I have no choice but to haul out each day, there are only a few mooring buoys on the local lake and these get snapped up early by the regulars (plus they're expensive). However, the storage yard is just over the road and there are no telegraph wires in the way, so the mast can stay up. At least my launch / recovery skills will develop quickly!

Cheers, Paul.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">While both of these boats are trailerable, they really are not "trailer sailors". The time to rig and remove rig is measured in hours, not minutes. If you will have to launch and retrieve the boat every day, you might want to look at something smaller. A C22 might be the right boat for you.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 19:36:26

Edit: I was on the phone while the last few posts were made...<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BritOnABeemer
 I will need to launch and recover the boat every time it is used, although the storage yard is literally across the road from the launching ramp...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...which leads to two questions:

1. Will you be launching for a one-day sail, or for a few days (and overnights) on the water?

2. Will you be able to pull her "across the road" with the mast up?

These questions relate to a 25-footer as a "day sailer" off a trailer. IMHO, it isn't. Some folks here have become quite skilled at stepping and unstepping the mast, along with the associated rigging and readying for sailing. However, at least some have said it's more than an hour of work before launch, and more than another hour after, to deal with the mast and rigging. After a while, this could dampen your passion. Most of us keep our boats in the water, and a few launch for multiple-day cruises and then pull back out.

If you'll be rigging and launching her for each daily sail on an inland lake, I'm going to suggest considering a 22-23' boat or smaller. On a typical (relatively contemporary) 22-23 footer, you'll find that the mast is much more manageable, the set-up and take-down times are something like half, trailering is simpler (at about half the weight), there can be a cabin with a porta-potti, substantial storage, overnight accommodations for two (good friends), and the boat should be suitable for lake conditions, even when it gets a little nasty. Examples include the Catalina 22, O'Day 22 and 23, Capri 22, Precision 23, Sirius 22, and a number of 19-20 footers.

This, of course, is another thing you should (and maybe already did) discuss with other sailers where you're considering keeping her.

Just another perspective... probably worth about what you're paying for it.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/27/2013 19:40:13

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3478 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 20:03:24

Paul,

Yes, the water ballast config easier to haul out regarding draft, etc. However, you mentioned seeing keel boats and related that to the Catalina Wing Keel config. Just want to make sure that you understand that the wing keel is much shallower draft (2' 11" draft) compared to a finned keel config, though, you are right in that the trailer would have to go deeper into the water compared to retrieving a WB config.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 20:23:13

2'11" is the C-25 wing. The C-250 wing is a little deeper--3'5".

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/27/2013 20:23:59

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 21:17:57

You really need to go aboard both boats to get an impression of the layouts.. I really prefer the C-25 layouts, but it is completely personal. If you like the open layout, then the weight and other benefits of the 250 should seal the deal. Launch and recovery of my swing keel is fast and easy and wouldn't be an ordeal for you if the rigging doesn't need to be addressed. It takes me about 1 1/2 hours to rig after a road trip and about 2 hours to get ready for the road. Depending on your future plans, a real trailer-sailer of 19 - 22 feet might be something to consider. I could be sailing my previous 21 footer half an hour after arriving at the ramp, that was rigging and launching.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2013 : 12:38:45

I'll just echo what's already said.....

Look at both and pick the one you like best.

Welcome aboard! You certainly found the right spot when contemplating a C25 or C250 purchase. If you buy the boat, join up here and get a nifty burgee to fly.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2013 : 20:23:11

Remember our Catalina 25 is your Jaguar.

Edited by - on

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
240 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2013 : 09:16:52

I sail out of a dry sail marina in central Illinois. Our club has a variety of C25 and C250s. Two of us have C250s with wing keels. There are several C25 swing keels and a couple C25 wing keels. While there are a couple C250 water ballast boats on our lake, none of those are at our club. The lake has three other marinas which are year round in the water slips. So, we do have options and continue to stick with what we have (significant difference in marina fees being the driving factor).

Launching my boat is not difficult. The mast is up, the sails are on. Like a boat in a slip, I am pretty well ready to go. I do have some additional steps, such as removing tie downs, wheel chocks and hooking up to the tow vehicle, etc. If my wife works with me, I can have the boat in the water and ready to go in 20 minutes. I can do it by myself, it just takes a little bit longer.

Water depth at the ramp and length of the ramp are major considerations. I think the C250 wb would require less of both. I also think the C250wb is going to be easier to take places because it is lighter and requires less water depth and ramp length.

I would have preferred to have a C250wb for trailerability. However, the lack of headroom was a turn off.

That's my two cents. I hope it is of some help.

Edited by - on

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