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Poptop or no poptop? Window mods?

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Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/01/2013 : 12:40:05

I have not had the opportunity to compare poptop models to non poptop models. There just doesn't seem to be any C-25's in our area to look at and compare.
In your opinion, if looking to purchase, would a non poptop model be a deal breaker?

In the absence of a poptop is it possible to replace windows with versions that open for better ventilation?

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Edited by - Kper on 04/01/2013 12:41:15

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2013 : 12:49:27

By the way, I'm 6' and a little bit.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2013 : 13:48:21

The answer will depend on how you will use your boat.
Racer? Cruiser? Daysailer? When I go out for a daysail, I almost never open the pop-top. When I anchor out for the night or go to a marina, the top gets opened every time.

The only other advantage to not having a pop-top, is that, if you wanted, you could mount a traveller on the cabin top. Which I would do in a heartbeat if I didn't have the pop-top.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2013 : 14:18:10

Primary use is cruising and overnighting.

I might take a look anyway. For 4k with a custom built trailer and 2 hrs from home.... At least the wife could stand up in it. lol

Edited by - Kper on 04/01/2013 14:19:23

iwillnotsubmit
1st Mate

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64 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2013 : 14:33:59

I don't have a pop-top and I like it so I could have more room to add cabin top hardware for bringing all lines back to the cockpit. I have two double spinlock clutches on each side of the cabin top and a winch on the starboard cabin top for raising the main, with room to spare. I'm getting the spring sailing fever really bad. Hopefully only a week or two till launch!!!

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2013 : 15:24:58

My C-25 had a pop-top. We used it occasionally while cruising and it was nice to be able to stand up somewhere near the stove.

Overall I wished the boat didn't have it. It makes routing lines more difficult, it is a huge seal that will easily leak, and it is annoying to use because you have to disconnect the boom vang to open the top. The new owner has had the boat for almost 6' and has never opened the top.

If you were 5'10" I'd say find another boat with a couple more inches of head clearance (Ericson 25+ and O'Day 25 are two examples) and avoid the pop-top. At 6' you won't find many, if any, 25' boats with the required head clearance.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2013 : 16:15:16

Maybe if I never owned a PT then I wouldn't miss it?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2013 : 18:02:18

If I'm on my boat, I'm under sail, which means my pop top is rarely used. I'm not even sure when the last time I raised it, but it could be measured in years.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2013 : 18:21:09

The 60-something y.o. guy who bought my pop-top C-25 from me wrenched his back shortly thereafter, opening it. It is heavy. He sold the boat not long after that to her current owner ("Voyager" Bruce). But before that, he did buy Catalina Direct's gas strut assist kit, which has been reported to reduce the effort by over half (?).

I appreciated the open top when at a dock or at anchor, and I'm just 5-9. But at that height, with the top closed, I had to slump just a little in the galley, and more going forward. Plus, the plentiful air with shelter from the sun made the raised top very pleasant. (I never used the vinyl enclosure.) I considered it dangerous to have the top up under way under any conditions, due to its considerable weight. Somebody could really get hurt.

I never had problems with leaks... There is a foam seal, but also a molded ridge in the deck, that the pop-top edge fits around, so that nothing short of a firehose will migrate in. I had double rope clutches on both sides, and triples would have fit. Three lines can run on both sides if you angle the "deck organizer" appropriately so they're fairly close together.

That's my 2 cents... All other observations above are valid--particularly the cabintop traveler.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/01/2013 18:24:57

ftworthsailor
Captain

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USA
279 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2013 : 19:39:53

Well, Here is my two cent worth-less.

I have a Catalina 22 with a pop-top and I have only raised it once to see how it works and hooks to the mast. The issue with it is that I have a boom vang that has to be removed in order to raise it. Almost too much trouble to do.

I do like the traveler system from Garhauser but WOW, that price is a killer!! One of the C-25's with a PT has one and he never lifts it since the traver was installed.

I am 6ft 6in and I now have a Catalina 25 fixed keel, solid top (no pop top) model. I have friends that have C-25's with pop top however up or down, I have NO room to stand up straight.

Now if they made a boat with a pop-top that gives you about 7ft. of headroom, I might be interested, but all that it does is change the angle of my stoop.

In the summer the PT opens the cabin to more light and fresh air. Otherwise you need a way to circulate the air - like my neat little Air Conditioner

Lastly, if you have a PT, you definitely need the TENT that goes with it, otherwise you become a bug attraction light at night while you are watching your battery powered flatpanel TV; or something....

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 04:26:36

our poptop is essential: Less stooping, but for the sense of space more than anything: we often sleep in the main cabin. We do install the cover and it is first thing done when we get to the marina.

As far as the boom vang, we have a snap shackle, so simply release the bottom, and move aside when putting the top up. That can be completed from inside when raising the top. We also store the vang inside when away from the boat.

Back to the thread questions: I wouldn't call a non pt a deal-breaker. For us since we use it so much, we would not go without. I have often thought about changing the head portlights with venting units. For such a small boat, the forward hatch and companionway really lets in a lot of fresh air. Couple a fan with that for stuffy days. We have used a box fan hanging from the pt struts to create a nice wind tunnel to sleep by.

Edited by - Ape-X on 04/02/2013 04:29:53

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 06:39:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ape-X
 our poptop is essential: Less stooping, but for the sense of space more than anything
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your reply says exactly what I was going to say!!!!

A couple of other thoughts: I made a mosquito-net cover many years ago to keep it open all the time at anchor for sleeping, and a windscoop for the forward hatch. The only area not really well ventilated for sleeping at anchor is the quarterberth, so I sit a small 12v fan on the shelf back at the aft end of the berth for sleeping.

We had two very active daughters literally grow up on Confetti, and I would have to chase them off of the pop top when it was up for fear it might collapse!!! I always had the thought I should make a more secure way to attach it to the mast due to that, but never did. I still think it would be a good idea though...and I still think its not really strong enough for even kids to be on top of it when its up!

We do occasionally sail with it up when its light air or if we are just powering along with the motor, but not often since it makes it less convenient to go forward.

It is heavy to lift up, but not too bad if you lift it at the right places. When I get older (i.e. more feeble than I already am!!! <smile>) I might look into the helper cylinders I have seen folks write about....

Chuck

Edited by - cshaw on 04/02/2013 06:45:25

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 07:05:28

It's personal preference and depending on what you want to use it for.

I've been planning to get into racing, but I've owned the boat for 5 years and never got into it. I spend nearly every weekend cruising and hanging out at the marina at night - therefore for me not having the pop top would be show stopper. In fact the pop top was one of key decision makers as I wanted a fairly small boat but still had clearance so I don't get hit in the head when I'm in the cabin. Yes it's a pain to take off the boom vang, raise the pop top and put the cover on.... but definitely worth it in my opinion. (I'm 6') This boat was suppose to be my stepping stone for 2 seasons before I get something bigger - but I'm so happy with it, i don't see a need upgrade and I'm just about to start 6th season! woo hoooo And rather than selling I continue investing into it.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 07:51:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by szymek
 ...but still had clearance so I don't get hit in the head when I'm in the cabin...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...except at the "head knocker" where you go forward into the head!

If I'd kept the boat, my next upgrade was going to be to remove the overhead piece that holds the "accordion" track and rig a curtain there, to save my scarred scalp! (I would have saved everything so the next owner had the option of restoring her to original condition, but I would have warned him!)

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 08:00:09

I think we'll still take a look. For $4k it might be hard to pass up.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 11:16:25

The other systems on these old boats are always in various states of disrepair, so the pop top is only one of the many factors that can give you a great sailing experience. You may find another boat somewhere with new sails, or a new motor, or new electronics, or a new dinghy, or new standing and running rigging, or a newly refurbished bottom and topsides, or other stuff.

I need the pop top on my boat to have fresh air as well as headroom while anchoring out on hot summer nights.

If there are few boats nearby, you might have to expand your search area and have the "winning boat" hauled to your sailing venue after purchase.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 11:23:28

$4k is a pretty regular price on a Catalina 25 that has some newer stuff and needs some work. I wouldn't consider that an outstanding deal unless it clearly has lots of recent upgrades.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 12:28:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 $4k is a pretty regular price on a Catalina 25 that has some newer stuff and needs some work. I wouldn't consider that an outstanding deal unless it clearly has lots of recent upgrades.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

With a nice trailer and 2 year old 4 stroke Nissan?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 13:31:14

What are the vintage, keel, and outboard on this one?

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 14:20:37

They aren't sold with trailers around here (Seattle), so I don't know trailer prices. Even Catalina 22s rarely have trailers here.

I bought my Catalina 25 for $4k with a 6 month old engine, shot main sail, old running rigging, dead cushions, dirty, but solid. Having looked at sailboat prices for a year after that I think I got a reasonable but not amazing deal.

I sold it for about double what I paid with new sails, new cushions, cleaned up, basic electronics, new galley equipment, all new running rigging. Overall that was a loss, I'd probably have done better to have bought a used boat in better shape for a little more money. The friend who bought my boat recognized that and jumped at the chance to get one that required very little work.

The little things matter. The engine is only one of the little things.

All that you had posted was that it $4k and had a custom trailer. That isn't enough to make a guess on if it is really overpriced or underpriced or in between. If it is $4k with a new engine, new sails, not original cushions, and newer running rigging then that is a great deal. If it is $4k with a good trailer and new engine and everything else isn't so great then the price seems fairly average to me.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 15:20:06

Well, the thread simply started out with an opinionated question concerning poptops. It's funny how these tend morph into more than originally planned sometimes.

We are new to sailing but have had 2 very courteous forum members helping me out. Even to the extent that I thought they would both have given up on me. At this point I still have one hanging in there - thanks Chris.

I have been pounding the web and local pubs and people about available C-25's and it is my finding that most of the available ones are on the coasts. There are a few within 1000 of me but all have had deal breaking issues, i.e. water marks INSIDE the boat, damaged hulls that weren't disclosed, etc. I know what roller furlers cost and bimini's, new engines, trailers, self tailing winches, etc, but those don't mean a thing to me if the boat sat on the bottom of the river. Not to sound rude by any means but there always seems to be a red flag. Either that or it priced too high and is too far away for me to justify. This one is reasonably priced and its close so I thought I'd post a few questions to see what people thought about certain features.

I'm taking a knowledgeable sailor with me to help check the boat and sails while the wife decides if its something she like to take on.

I'll post some pictures when I get home.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 17:14:16

Hopefully this works...
It is the first 15 photos marked "1978" in the link.

http://s19.photobucket.com/user/Midwest6/library/?page=1

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 18:03:16

Worth a hard look!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 19:31:22

We owned our 1984 C-25 for about 5 years and never once raised the pop-top. I'm 5'7" and the wife is a bit shorter, so it wasn't a problem for us. I would have preferred one without the pop top, but they are hard to find inland.

Edited by - on

davidbloodworth
1st Mate

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USA
78 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 20:55:05

My two cents worth. I am 6 ' tall and have seldom had my top up. I don't spend that much time inside and with the companionway top open there is plenty of headroom down the middle of the boat.

As far as putting my fin keel boat on and off the trailer it is possible but not a lot of fun. You are going to have to have guides on the back corners of the trailer so you can see where it is so you can get the keel between the back supports. Your trailer will be so deep you will not see those. You will also want to install some type of system to center the keel. The pod support system is not the best at centering the boat. My trailer does not have a winch and that was always an issue getting far enough on the trailer. I don't have pictures of my guide system I put on my trailer. My boat was on a parking lot at the top of a private ramp that allowed me to leave the mst up. FYI - I have a 15 foot extension on my trailer on a long good ramp to get it on and off.

As soon as the lake my boat is at catches enough water mine is going in a slip. I can't tell you how many times I would walk up to get the trailer and look back at the boat along the dock and think how nice it would be to be leaving it right where it was.

Didn't mean to hijack this thread. Just started and it kind of went crazy.

I paid $8,400 for my '84 TR/FK 3 yrs ago with a very nice galvanized tandem trailer, all new cushions in and out. 84 Honda 4 cycle outboard and it had been pampered. I still have equipment that came with it I haven't put on it..pop top kit,anchor roller,reefing system just to name a few.

If you want to talk about loading a fin keel boat free to give me a call. You are way ahead of the game by finding this forum. I was extremely lucky because I bought my boat somewhat blindly.

Eight zero six-six three two-three two four four- cell phone

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 20:56:47

With the other Dave B, definitely worth a hard look.

Edited by - on

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