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Laser flares and SAR pilots...

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/26/2013 : 20:20:57

I forget which thread the subject of flares and the modern day replacements came up, but I just had dinner with a Coastie friend and the subject came up. The pilots are forced to disengage if the laser hits their eyes in any way... Useless... Just what I thought... Keep buying real flares guys.

Sten

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2013 : 07:56:42

Forced by who? Are there regulations they have to follow? I don't recall the company, but didnt they have tenative approval from the USCG for their laser flares?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2013 : 08:16:41

Here's the reply to my query from Kim Erickson at Greatland Laser (greatlandlaser.com):
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We appreciate your inquiry. Rescue Lasers do not yet meet the USCG requirements to replace pyrotechnic flares – yet. Meanwhile, we have many customers (including USCG personnel) who have elected to carry our products in their survival gear in addition to pyrotechnic flares so they’ll have something to signal when after that one or two minute pyrotechnic flare expires!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
So the WM Advisor is wrong.

I wonder how their device is meant to be used... Are you supposed to point it to the sky and wave it around to make a light-show in whatever mist there is in the air, or point it at potential help so it flashes in their eyes? Clearly, the latter would be a problem.

EDIT: I sent a couple of questions back to Kim--will report her response.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/27/2013 08:42:37

redviking
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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2013 : 11:09:37

Uh yeah... If it blinds them in anyway, Coasties are to disengage... End of story... My friend is the Com. Commander for Sector St. Pete... This is from the source, not the horse...

sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2013 : 09:58:27

Her reply:<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Dear Dave,

We have also recently learned of these instructions to certain USCG pilots and are working to address the problem. Greatland’s patented Rescue Laser signaling devices are quite different than the more powerful lasers that caused the problem with the USCG last year. Rescue Lasers are <5 mW so they are not going to injure a pilot’s eyes when the signal crosses their line of sight. The expanding line of light is what makes the product unique from a laser pointer and many other laser devices and also what makes it an effective signaling device. You don’t have to be a great aim; it just needs to catch the peripheral vision of the pilot or other search party. Please see our FAQ for a description of how they work and a comparison to laser pointers. http://greatlandlaser.com/faq.html

Rescue Lasers have been on the market since 2001 and we have never had a report of an injury. They have also been used by search and rescue groups as well as government/military agencies around the world. We hope to have the issue cleared up with the USCG soon.

Best regards,
Kim<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">So this is not like a laser pointer... It is more like a highly efficient flashlight that sends a cone of light whose width is 1/14th of its length (if I did the arithmetic right, based on the data in the FAQs in the link above).

The jury is still out for me--I'm not a fan of complicated pyrotechnics in an emergency where I should be concentrating on my radio and my passengers. I could keep both, but the flares must be replaced regularly so I meet the current regs, and disposal is a PITA. But I don't go over the horizon like Sten does. Let's see what the Coasties say about this specifically, rather than about lasers in general (including pointers).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/28/2013 10:04:45

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2013 : 14:12:07

Thanks for bird-dogging this Dave, I'm very interested in the eventual outcome. I'm about to replace flares (which I'll buy new pyrotechnics anyway), but my birthday is coming up and a one of these laser flares would suit that very well.

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1328 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2013 : 18:04:26

Does anyone know if laser flares been approved for Canadian waters... it seems like an excellent modern addition or stand alone safety feature at a within reach price...

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2013 : 20:30:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Her reply:[quote]Dear Dave,

We have also recently learned of these instructions to certain USCG pilots and are working to address the problem...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm interested to hear what those "problem children" in the USCG have to say.

I understand the theory of how the spreading of the light makes it weaker. I just wonder how a USCG pilot who sees a green flash is supposed to know that it's something he should fly toward instead of fly away from. Is it a laser with a weak signal because of mist or cloud (and could be blindingly strong if it hits his eye again)? Or is it one of these electronic flares? How is he supposed to know? Chances are he's going to fly away and not risk getting blinded. Wouldn't you?

Kim's statements need to be taken with a grain of salt, because there's a product to be sold.

I'm much more interested to hear of any formal testing, and whether it will lead to USCG certification. If not, then there's probably a problem with using them.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3478 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2013 : 04:28:57

I ended up getting an SOS strobe that was designed for kayakers...

[url="http://www.campmor.com/seattle-sports-hydrostar-sos-seastar-deluxe-light.shtml?source=CI&ci_sku=60661&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw="]Strobe[/url]

and if you decide to leave the ship ( don't ) you can clip it on you.

Edited by - redeye on 04/29/2013 04:33:12

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3478 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2013 : 04:47:09

BTW.. as someone who is personally involved with lasers burning the retina on a daily basis for the last 28 years I can assure you a laser pointer will not unintentionally damage the retina. Never seen that, never will... ( that doesn't mean go stare into one, be careful. )

You would have to fixate the laser, the persons head and the eye in order for the laser to stay aimed at one spot long enough to make a burn.

It also takes something like LSD added to the process for the retina to get damaged looking at the sun.

Night blindness is another story. If a helicopter approaches you and you shine a laser at them then you are the fool.. It is not only a night blindness problem, they expect you could be aiming a weapon at them.

I'd break off also...

Edited by - redeye on 04/29/2013 05:24:30

GaryB
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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2013 : 12:02:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 ...they expect you could be aiming a weapon at them.

I'd break off also...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Break off a few rounds with a mini-gun.

Edited by - GaryB on 04/29/2013 12:03:44

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2013 : 10:42:34

Emergency strobes should be attached on a 25' cord to the horseshoe Pfd. They float upright with the light flashing only when floating.... Old school.... I still say, if deep offshore blind the freak out of the 747 pilot overhead if that's what it takes. He report it and you will be found.

But for this crowd, buy more flares....

Sten

Edited by - on

redviking
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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2013 : 11:06:31

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2013 : 15:42:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...if deep offshore blind the freak out of the 747 pilot overhead if that's what it takes. He report it and you will be found.

But for this crowd, buy more flares....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">We have no choice at this point--the laser flares aren't approved as substitutes, and we have to have something that's approved.

But a pilot only 1.5-2 miles distant from a boat is not going to be blinded by a 500-750' wide fan of light from this little device. He's just going to see a small red flash as the light moves through his field of vision--about 1/1000th the intensity of a laser pointer if I interpret Greatland's description correctly. Waving that "fan" in his direction will create a series of flashes.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/30/2013 15:50:47

redeye
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3478 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2013 : 03:39:45

<< deep offshore blind the freak out of the 747 pilot overhead if that's what it takes.>>

word...

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2013 : 08:02:10

For me the bottom line is the basic information. Straight from the coastie’s mouth, they (may or may not disengage do to a laser being directed at them) I plan to do 2 things.
1) Buy more flares
2) Thank Sten for posting this information

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2013 : 18:06:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glen
 For me the bottom line is the basic information. Straight from the coastie’s mouth, they (may or may not disengage do to a laser being directed at them) I plan to do 2 things.
1) Buy more flares
2) Thank Sten for posting this information

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You are welcome Glen... How's Renzo?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2013 : 20:01:09

Well, I'm going to continue following this. Greatland's laser flare is not a laser pointer, the USCG may soon officially recognize that, and I'm not a fan of starting fires (flares) on a boat that's already in trouble. I'll keep buying and disposing of Orion flares so they're not expired when I get boarded (close to an annual event), but I might buy a Greatland flare to use when I'm actually in trouble.

Edited by - on

redviking
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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2013 : 20:17:29

I will admit to owning a led flashlight with a SOS pattern and a laser. I sewed the holster onto my Inflatable... I also have two pull chain type rockets in a custom pocket on the other side. They double as a gun alternative on sketchy dinghy docks.

Sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2013 : 07:27:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 I will admit to owning a led flashlight with a SOS pattern and a laser...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...as in pointer?

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2013 : 18:25:08

Yeppers... I like gear...

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2013 : 18:31:06

Yeppers... I like gear...

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2013 : 19:15:53

You're echoing again...

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2013 : 07:38:08

Glen: It'd be a good idea to edit that e-mail address so it's not verbatim--at least the punctuation--otherwise you're going to start getting spammed from all over the world. You should also be able to e-mail Sten through his redviking profile.

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2013 : 06:43:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Glen: It'd be a good idea to edit that e-mail address so it's not verbatim--at least the punctuation--otherwise you're going to start getting spammed from all over the world. You should also be able to e-mail Sten through his redviking profile.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thank you Dave, I have deleted the reply

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2013 : 06:50:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glen
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Glen: It'd be a good idea to edit that e-mail address so it's not verbatim--at least the punctuation--otherwise you're going to start getting spammed from all over the world. You should also be able to e-mail Sten through his redviking profile.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thank you Dave, I have deleted the reply
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dave if I pick the icon "Email Poster" that will allow me to Email Stin personally, or is there another way to access the Redviking profile

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